Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Case 132 has changed.

Paul Zupan
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Judge
Remember the discussion over the definition of 'on a beat to weather'? Well, that's been resolved with a recent change to Case 132.
Created: 18-Dec-04 00:36

Comments

Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
I think it does a nice job covering the scenarios in the ‘5-boat/scenario drawing’ in our previous thread and appears to cover the other less obvious scenarios like beating back to pass the leeward mark after being blown well to leeward of it and boats meeting at passing marks.


Created: 18-Dec-04 01:57
Al Sargent
Nationality: United States of America
0
Thanks Paul for bringing this to our attention.

Just to ensure I understand: for the second question, around 42.3(c), if a boat sailing upwind has overstood the weather mark (i.e., their course to the weather mark is below close-hauled), they may attempt to plane or surf, subject to the limitations of rule 42.3(c) in particular and rule 42 in general?
Created: 18-Dec-18 20:07
Paul Zupan
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
I think you are correct Al. It seems that the limitations of 42.3(c) only apply when a boat's course is close-hauled or above.
Created: 18-Dec-19 06:03
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0
What mean the words "a windward mark" in Case 132?
P.S. I think that in our case (a fleet-race) we cannot be guided the interpretation by MR CALL N1.


Created: 18-Dec-30 17:32
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Boris, given the direction to the next mark, direction of the wind, Yellow's very tight trim and her position relative to the layline, what would you say to the argument that 18.1(b) takes Case 132 out of the picture? - Ang
Created: 19-Jan-04 17:08
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0

Ang, if I understand you correctly - you think that the proper course at the mark for Yellow is to tack?
Well, then I'll change the picture a little.


PS .I can't load a picture :(

UPD 

 

Created: 19-Jan-08 06:37
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Boris .. thought I'd respond while Paul works on the image upload issue.
 
 So, yea .. I thought given your drawing the argument could have been made that Y's proper course would be to tack at the mark. As drawn, Y was on a tight-beat at 40 deg to TW, on a track not clearing the mark, and the course to the next mark relative to the wind had port-tack significantly favored. Given that, I thought that in the absence of Green, Yellow would tack prior to reaching the mark as not to risk hitting the mark or slowing too much as they luffed to pass it.
 
 Assuming that your updated drawing puts Yellow above the layline to the mark so that Y can pass it without slowing, then I think Case 132 "Situation 2" illustrates the scenario.
 
 As far as your question "What mean the words "a windward mark" in Case 132?" .. this is how I look at it in the context of Case 132.

The term "a windward mark" appears in Answer 1 in Case 132. Here is the full context .. (emphasis added)

The mark could be a windward mark, a finishing mark at the port end of a finishing line, a windward gate mark, or a limit mark that is not a rounding mark. In each of these situations, the boats shown are ‘on opposite tacks on a beat to windward’ and, therefore, rule 18 does not apply between them.
I'm assuming that English is a 2nd language for you, so what I write here assumes that's true .... as what I'm going to describe is a subtle English-language point.
 
 The first thing I would note for you is the context of how the term appears in the sentence. In this case, the use of the term "could be" precedes the list. I would interpret that as indicating that what follows is a list of items which are to serve as examples, but not a complete or definitive list. I think the intent is for the reader to consider the examples together and as a whole to develop a larger idea and understanding.
 
 As to the specific term "windward mark", I think that most would interpret that to mean the following (this is my personal guess at it):
 
 Windward Mark: A rounding-mark on the current leg of the course which is upwind from a boat's current position, or relative to the starting-line, which would require a boat to sail on a beat to reach and round it on its proper side.
 
Ang

Created: 19-Jan-09 19:44
Paul Zupan
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
Sorry for the delay. The editor component has upgraded and is broken (and there is no backward path). I'm in contact with the author, but will probably take some time. I've been threatening to switch this editor out for something more stable and perhaps now (this weekend) is the time...
Created: 19-Jan-09 19:56
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0
 I think Case 132 "Situation 2" illustrates the scenario

.Windward Mark: A rounding-mark on the current leg of the course which is upwind from a boat's current position, or relative to the starting-line, which would require a boat to sail on a beat to reach and round it on its proper side.

Well, thanks Angelo.
What about scenario #3?
Is it apply for the Case 132?
132_N.jpg 77.7 KB
Created: 19-Feb-09 10:27
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Boris .. Wow .. that's some scenario.  I'm certainly no authority on the updated Case 132 (for that matter I'm not an authority on anything) .. but you know me, I'm willing to take a public swing at any pitch.  I hope that others on the thread will feel free to point out if/when I miss the mark.

OK, here it goes ...

  1. At position #2, Blue is first to enter the zone and is clear ahead of Green
    1. none of RRS 18.1's exclusions apply including 18.1 (a) and (b), therefore Case 132 doesn't apply
    2. Green owes Blue mark-room by RRS 18.2(b)
    3. Green must keep-clear of Blue by RRS 12
  2. At position #3, Green enters the zone and Green is overlapped on the same tack to Windward of Blue
    1. RRS 18.2 (c) applies, thus Green still owes Blue mark-room as well as room for Blue to sail her proper course
    2. RRS 12 ceases to apply, RRS 11 starts to apply.  Green as windward boat must keep-clear of Blue
  3. At position #3-1/2 Blue has tacked and has just passed head-to-wind from port tack to starboard tack (not shown, so use imagination)
    1. RRS 18.2 (b) & (c) cease to apply due to RRS 18.2(d)
      1. Green no longer owes Blue mark-room
    2. RRS 18 still applies between Blue and Green 
      1. least one of them is still in the zone and they have to leave the mark on the same side
      2. none of RRS 18.1's exclusions apply (thus Case 132 still doesn't apply)
      3. RRS 18.2(a) applies, Blue owes Green mark-room
        1. though they are on opposite tacks, they are overlapped because RRS 18 applies (see Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap)
    3. RRS 11 ceases to apply as Blue is now on Starboard Tack
    4. RRS 13 applies to Blue, she must keep clear of Green until she reaches a close-hauled starboard course
    5. RRS 10 does not apply while RRS 13 does, Blue is not ROW boat (yet)
    6. Green has not yet started to turn toward the mark or toward Blue
  4. At position #4 - Blue completes her tack onto starboard
    1. RRS 13 ceases to apply, Blue kept clear of Green
    2. RRS 10 applies, Blue is ROW boat, Green must keep clear of Blue
    3. RRS 15 applies because Blue became ROW due to her action so must initially give Green room to keep clear
      1. it's close, but I think Blue gives Green room to keep clear by Green bearing away behind Blue
    4. RRS 18.2(a) applies, Blue owes Green mark-room which Blue fails to give.
    5. RRS 18.1(a) and (b) do not apply
      1. Green is not coming from a position of "over standing" and is not on a beat to windward
      2. It is neither Green or Blue's proper course to tack at the mark
      3. Case 132 still doesn't apply
  5. DSQ Blue for failing to give Green 18.2(a) mark-room (assuming that Blue holds her course and Green falls off and ducks Blue)



Created: 19-Feb-10 21:35
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0
Thanks for the detailed analysis, Angelo.
And so, Scenario 2  does illustrates Case 132 and  Scenario 3 don't?  But what is the difference between them? (where is the border - does one correspond with C132 or  doesn't?)

Green is not coming from a position of "over standing" ...
 
? What is "over standing" ?                   P.S. Case 132 says "when one or both of them have overstood the close-hauled layline..."
Created: Thu 14:28
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Boris, IMO they are different because of the following:

  •  in your Scenario 2 both boats approach and enter the zone on a beat to windward.   At that moment, we look at our RRS 18.1 tests, and look to the situations outlined in Case 132.  If you take your Scenario 2 drawing and delete position 1 and 2 (which is valid .. only consider 3 and 4), then it matches Case 132's Situation 2 exactly.
  • in your Scenario 3, as I outlined above, each time 18.1's exclusion tests are applied, they fail (IMO).

Now, I'd like to see other's input on whether or not they agree with my conclusion at 3.2 above.  That's the place one has to argue I've got it wrong to bring Case 132 into play I think .... and where I'm on the softest ground.

As to the meaning of "over standing" is .. here is my WAG at it.

"Over Standing" : A boat "over stands" when, while sailing toward either a windward or leeward mark, the boat sails past the optimum layline while accounting for the boat's sail-plan, wind, sea-state and current.

Ang
Created: Thu 15:20
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