Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

18.1b is a Strange case for me.....

Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
Hi friends !!
 Can anybody show us a diagram about 18.1b ?
......it's not easy to image a senario for me.

THANKS !!
Created: 24-Mar-02 15:06

Comments

Hans Vengberg
Nationality: Denmark
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
0
HI.
F.inst when we sail inner-/outher loop.
When outher loop reach their top mark (port tacker) they have to tack.
If they meet a boat comming from inner to outher loop that boat do not have to tack - just bare off.
Port tack outher loop are not entitled to mark room from stb. tack boat from innerloop - rule 18 do not apply as per 18.1(b)
Created: 24-Mar-02 15:24
Casper Lyhne
Nationality: Denmark
0
The boats marked with "a" are covered by 18.1a. And the boats marked with "b" covers 18.1b.
path27-6-71-9-6-7-9-5.png 31 KB
Created: 24-Mar-02 15:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
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Casper … take a look at Case 132 and see if your drawing/description jives with it. 

Hans, can you post a drawing to help us to visualize what you are describing?
Created: 24-Mar-02 18:42
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
See WS Case book Case 9

John
Created: 24-Mar-02 19:26
Casper Lyhne
Nationality: Denmark
0
My drawing does not capture all aspects of Rule 18.1a/b but it is indeed an example of it, and it is consistent with case 132.
Created: 24-Mar-02 19:29
Hans Vengberg
Nationality: Denmark
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
1
Sorry – I do not have such a nice drawing program Angelo.

18.1(b) closes a hole in the rule.

18.1(a) say that rule 18 do NOT apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.

If we did not have 18.1(b) then the boats comming up on, or close to, port layline on outher loop could claim mark room from boats on stb. comming from inner loop, because only boats on inner loop are on a beat to windward and the excemption in 18.1(a) are not true.

This could be a terrible mess but this is taken care of by 18.1(b) saying rule 18 do NOT apply beween boats on opposite tack when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack.

The situation could also occur in other circumstances – big windshifts on a mark one similar, where conditions change so that proper course is to tack for only one boat.

Hope this is clear enough.
Created: 24-Mar-02 19:49
Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
0
I agree that 18.1b should cover two boats on opposite tacks on a beat to weather, making 18.1a somewhat unnecessary. Hans could be right that b was added to cover situations when it's not clear that both boats are on a beat. But it seems like b would be all you would need.  I could be missing some scenario covered by a but not b. But I cannot think of one. 
Created: 24-Mar-02 21:02
Hans Vengberg
Nationality: Denmark
Certifications:
  • International Judge
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0
Smal typing error:
"because only boats on inner loop are on a beat to windward"
It is of cause boats on OUTHER loop that are on a beat to windward - sorry for the confusion.
Best.
Created: 24-Mar-02 21:16
Rene Nusse
Nationality: Australia
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  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
  • Umpire In Training
0
Between 2 and 3, rule 18.1 starts applying

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.

But is then instantly rules out by 18.1(b)

However, it does not apply between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack...
18.1-example-no-1.jpg 20.7 KB
Created: 24-Mar-03 02:49
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Hans, my apologies, but I am still struggling to visualize what you are describing (maybe just draw it by hand and take a picture with your phone?)

When saying inner/outer loop .. are you describing a W/L course that (for instance) has windward-mark1 2km away and a 2nd windwward-mark2 maybe 3km away and the course would be … (all rounded to port) ..

Start - M1 - startpin - M2 - finish? .. 

Created: 24-Mar-03 15:19
Hans Vengberg
Nationality: Denmark
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
0
I will give it a try:

image.png 903 KB
Created: 24-Mar-03 16:14
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
2
image.png 668 KB


Yellow and Blue are on a reaching leg and about to meet at the mark at the end of that leg. The leg is a close reach, and there is a strong current aligned with the wind, pushing the fleet to leeward. Blue, a lake sailor who had not previously raced in strong current, did not account for the effect of the current by sailing a course higher than the rhumb line course to the mark, and as a result, the current swept Blue below the mark. Blue then had to tack and sail close-hauled on port tack to get to a position up-current of the mark so he could round it. Yellow sailed a higher course than Blue and avoided being swept below the mark. At position 4 the boats are on opposite tacks and the proper course at the mark is for one but not both of them is to tack. 
Position 1 - Rule 12.
Position 2 - Rule 12.
Position 3 - Rule 12, 18.2(b).
Between 3 and 4 - Rule 13, 18.2(d), Rule 10.
Position 4 - Rule 10, 
No mark-room per 18.1(b)
Created: 24-Mar-03 22:26
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
THANKS YOU SO MUCH !!!!!
Created: 24-Mar-04 01:32
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Rene Nusse said Created: Yesterday 02:49
Between 2 and 3, rule 18.1 starts applying

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.

But is then instantly rules out by 18.1(b)

However, it does not apply between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack...

Rene,

We don't apply the chapeau and condition subparagraph of RRS 18.1 in a temporal sequence, we take them 'all of a piece', so in your diagram RRS 18 never applies at all.
Created: 24-Mar-04 12:20
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
You guys are overthinking this as usual.
How else do you include where to compliment being on a beat to windward you have a boat that has overstood and reaching in. It is not on a beat to windward but still needs the opposite tack exemption as 18.1.a.
Created: 24-Mar-04 13:34
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mike re: “How else do you include where to compliment being on a beat to windward you have a boat that has overstood and reaching in. It is not on a beat to windward but still needs the opposite tack exemption as 18.1.a.”

Case 132 captures boats that “overstood” within 18.1(a) by providing an interpretation of what “on a beat to windward” means.   Therefore, I think the drawings that Hans and Jerry provided are helpful to visualize possible scenarios other than where one or both boats have “overstood”. (We read Catalan’s OP to ask in what situations does 18.1(b) apply alone, without 18.1(a).)

Case 132
[…] For the purposes of these rules [16.2 & 18.1(a)], when are boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward?

Answer
Two boats on opposite tacks are on a beat to windward when, after their starting signal,
  1. the course each of them would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible, in the absence of all other boats, is closehauled or above, or
  2. one or both of them are overstanding a close-hauled layline to their next mark. A boat on the windward side of a close-hauled layline to a leeward mark is not ‘overstanding’ that layline, she is ‘above’ that layline

Based on my reading of Case 132, IMO Casper’s drawing could be 18.1(a) and/or (b) depending on why Pink-b is above the lay line.  
  • If Pink-B overstood, she is captured by both 18.1(a) via Case 132 and 18.1(b). 
  • If she is sailing a different loop/leg/course where the rhumbline was a reach, then the situation is captured by 18.1(b) only. 
Created: 24-Mar-04 14:13
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Fun Fact: The forum thread below from Feb 2018 preceded a change to Case 132 which came out later that year on Dec 2018.  The significant change in the current version of Case 132 was the addition of the “overstood” condition and its inclusion in 18.1(a).

Boris K’s Feb 2018 Thread: “Maybe Rule 18.1(a) Needs to be Changed”

Prior to the current Case 132, we considered this image below, depicting 4 individual 2-boat scenarios at the finish in one drawing (Yellow vs Cyan, Yellow v Red, Yellow v Blue, Yellow v Green).

Because a boat has no proper course after finishing, 18.1(b) cannot apply (i.e. no PC, no need to tack).

Without the change to Case 132 to include the “overshood” conditions, Yellow arguably would owe Green Mark-room, but not owe Cyan mark-room.

The Dec 2018 update to Case 132 made it clear that Red, Blue and Green “overstood“ and therefore all the boats depicted on port fall within 18.1(a) and thus 18 does not apply. 

image.jpeg 119 KB



Created: 24-Mar-05 14:43
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