Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Maybe the rule 18.1 needs to be changed?

Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation

Facts, conclusions and rules that apply:

- Two boats approaching the finishing line and are at the zone of finish’s mark.

- Green is sailing her proper course (close-hauled) on starboard.

- Red is sailing her proper course (below close-hauled) on port.

- Case 132 by CaseBook WS says: “A boat is ‘on a beat to windward’ when the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of all other boats is a close-hauled course or above” so the Red boat doesn’t sailing a beat to windward so the rule 18.1(a) doesn’t apply.

- Rule 18.1(b) also doesn’t apply because none of the boats need to tack for sailing proper course at the mark.

- Since the boats is in the zone and articles (a, b, c, d) of rule 18.1 does not apply so the rule 18 is apply.

- And since the rule 18 is apply so the boats are overlapped as neither is clear astern.

- As the boats are overlapped so the rule 18.2 is apply and Green shall give the inside boat (Red) mark-room. And Red shall be exonerated by the rule 21 if she broken the rule 10

Created: 18-Feb-03 13:42

Comments

David Allsebrook
Nationality: Canada
0
If Rule 18.1 does not apply then none of Rule 18 applies. It is a port-starboard issue (Rule10).
Created: 18-Feb-03 14:21
David Wilber
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
-1
No different than round a weather mark; red must keep clear. Refer to RRS 18.1 (a) and (b).
Created: 18-Feb-03 14:29
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0
Does not apply ONLY 18.(a), (b), (c), (d) - these rules are in fact exceptions to rule 18.1. If it is not applicable, then rule 18 is applicable:
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a
mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.
However, it does not apply
Created: 18-Feb-03 14:39
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
-1

-1
Thumbs down x1

No different than round a weather mark; red must keep clear. Refer to RRS 18.1 (a) and (b).


OMG....see (and read carefully, please) me post and RRS 18.1 & Case 132.
Created: 18-Feb-03 14:49
Francisco Lopez
Nationality: Colombia
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
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No need to alarm, nor to change the rule... As you state, Case 132 says that red on port (as per your diagram) is not sailing on a beat to windward and therefore 18.1(a) does not apply, but 18.1(b) DOES apply. 18.1(b) says that rule 18 does NOT apply "between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course AT THE MARK for one but not both of them is to tack". The proper course (fastest to finish) for red, if she wants to claim mark-room, is to tack. Otherwise, in the absence of starboard, she could sail her course and finish on port tack but she would not be sailing her proper course nor taking mark-room. Rule 18 does NOT apply between these two boats.

On another note, boats are NOT overlapped as you state, because according to the definition (Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap) these "terms always apply to boats on the same tack (which they are not). They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them (which it does not) or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind (which they are not). These two boats are NOT overlapped.

The only rule left in this case would be rule 10 (On Opposite Tacks). And again as per your diagram, by altering course, port kept clear of starboard as required by rule 10. No rules were infringed.
Created: 18-Feb-03 14:55
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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Agree .. RRS 18 doesn't apply, so back to RRS 10.

That said, Boris' example does bring up an interesting question in regards to 132 and 18.1 ..

Is it 18.1a or 18.1.b that turns off RRS 18 in this example?

Is RRS 18.1.a not applicable because Port so over-stood the mark that she is coming in on a tight reach instead of close-hauled?

Do both boats have to be on a beat at the time they meet at the mark?

The language of 18.1.a is unclear as ".. on a beat to windward" is singular. Seems that it's describing a general state of the boats in the race .. not individual states of the boats when they meet.

If the individual states were the intention, wouldn't it have been better to say " between boats on opposite tacks, both being on beats to windward"? (change in red).

PS. Or even more simply make “beat” plural and remove “a”.

“between boats on opposite tacks on beats to windward.”

Created: 18-Feb-03 15:02
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0

but 18.1(b) DOES apply. 18.1(b) says that rule 18 does NOT apply "between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course AT THE MARK for one but not both of them is to tack". The proper course (fastest to finish) for red, if she wants to claim mark-room, is to

I don't agree. Green don't need to tack for her proper course AT THE MARK regardless of whether there is Red or not. In addition, due of the presence Red she have not a room for tacking and then finishing.

The language of 18.1.a is unclear as ".. on a beat to windward" is singular. Seems that it's describing a general state of the boats in the race .. not individual states of the boats when they meet.

I think in CASE132 is answer for it.
Created: 18-Feb-03 15:55
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
-1
Hey. Seems simple to me

Rule 18 does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,

so simple starboard port.

Hi David A.
Created: 18-Feb-03 16:43
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
1
I agree that the language of 18.1(a) "on a beat to windward" needs to be changed to include this and similar situations.
Our "understanding" of the phrase has always been "an upwind leg," but Boris points out the fallacy in that, due to Case 132.
Two boats might be sailing different races simultaneously wherein red was sailing a reach to the same mark and her proper course might be to harden up but not tack.
Perhaps:
18.1(a) between boats on opposite tacks unless they are overlapped.
Created: 18-Feb-03 17:13
Ricardo Lobato
Nationality: Brazil
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
1
Boris,

You are correct. Red is entitle to mark-room. I did this question 10 years ago to the Q&A panel and I got the reply bellow. It was not published.
See here: http://www.regras.com.br/site/images/Docs/QA_06-AL_Sit_2_DO_NOT_PUBLISH.pdf

There are many situations where the rule doesn't work as expected! But we don't want the rules too long and complicate with a lot of exceptions.
Created: 18-Feb-03 23:12
Bill Handley
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Rule 18 applies if the requirements of 18.1 ( one of the boats in the zone of a mark they have to leave on the same side) are met, which is the case here. The rule may be disapplied if one of the conditions set out in points 18.1 a.b.c or d are met. The conditions of 18.1(a) are not met because the boats (note the plural in the wording of the rule) are not on a beat to windward. At a normal windward mark 18.1(b) would disapply rule 18 because red would have to tack to round the mark to sail her proper course and green would not. In this specific case 18.1(b) does not apply because red's proper course is to continue on port tack to cross the line. Rules 18.1 (c) and (d) are irrelevant.

It follows from the above that Rule 18 applies and red as inside overlapped boat is entitled to mark room under rule 18.2(a).

It should be noted that green's obligation is only to give mark room as defined so she has to give red sufficient room to leave the mark on the required side. This may require red to tack into the space between green and the mark if green has left her room to do so. Red can not sail on past the mark as she would infringe rule 10 and would not be taking mark room to which she was entitled (that room is limited to just enough space to leave the mark on the required side) and so would not be exonerated by rule 21.
Created: 18-Feb-04 02:43
John Standley
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
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In my opinion it is case132 that needs changing.
Although red is not sailing close hauled she is 'on a beat to windward'.
The leg from the last mark required her to 'sail into the wind with repeated tacks' which is the dictionary definition of a beat..
Until she has completed that leg she should still be considered to be beating.
Created: 18-Feb-04 03:26
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
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  • Club Race Officer
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One might just as well argue that red does not have to leave the mark on the same side (thus negating 18) because at the finish line she does not have to fully cross the line and leave the mark on any side at all.
However, I stand with my suggested change of 18.1(a), above, to "unless they are overlapped." That rides on the carefully crafted last sentence of the definition of clear ahead/clear astern and abandons the insufficient terms "beat to windward."
Created: 18-Feb-04 08:08
John Standley
Nationality: Australia
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  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
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Philip,
I am not sure that would work as the boats are overlapped by definition.
Neither is clear astern and if rule 18 applies between them (which it would) then they are overlapped.
I also think both boats are leaving the mark on the same side even though they do not have to completely pass it.
John
Created: 18-Feb-04 09:10
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
John, my suggested 18.1(a) would say that 18 does NOT apply:
.
"18 MARK ROOM
"Rule 18 applies when boats are required... ...in the zone.
"However IT DOES NOT APPLY
"(a) between boats on opposite tacks unless they are overlapped,"
...
Then, by definition, boats on opposite tacks can only be overlapped when BOTH are sailing "more than 90 degrees from the true wind."
That pretty well rules out any port and starboard circumstances at a windward mark.
The original question regarded a boat bearing down just below a beat to windward.
My suggestion covers that and any port tack boat sailing at any angle.approaching a starboard tack boat's windward mark - even if that same mark is a downwind mark for the port tacker sailing a different race course.
.
.
Created: 18-Feb-05 07:24
Ricardo Lobato
Nationality: Brazil
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
0
Hi Pillpe,

When 18 applies, these terms applies, even on opposite tacks less that 90 degres. It is not the other way around,

"They (these terms) apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind."
Created: 18-Feb-05 11:25
Juan Carlos Soneyra
Nationality: Argentina
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
  • National Race Officer
0
Rule 18.1 applies and none of the exceptions of the rule (a, b, c and d) are applicable. Just plane Rule 18.1.
Because rule 18 applies and both boats have to leave the mark on the same side, according to Definitions boats are overlapped in regard they are on opposite tacks.
Rule 18.2 gives Red room at the mark, they are overlapped since entering the Zone.
On the other hand, Red doesn't need to tack to reach the mark or the finishing line as soon as possible, she will need just a short luff and it's done.
Created: 18-Feb-05 15:37
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
OK .. I was wrong in my first post .. 18.1.b is off .. 18 is on .. mark-room is owed.

That said, I don't think it makes sense (or is at least inconsistent) that mark room is owed if you consider the following scenarios .....

Riddle me this Batman ...

In the following picture, I'm actually trying to describe 2 scenarios in one image .. so please only look at Yellow v Blue .. and then Yellow v Green.

THIS IS NOT A 3-Boat Scenario



In both scenarios .. either Blue or Green reach the zone before Yellow.

Scenario #1, Blue and Yellow 'on a beat to windward', when Blue reaches the zone .. therefore 18.1.a turns off 18 and we resort to RRS 10 to sort it out .. no mark-room owed.
Scenario #2, Green and Yellow are NOT BOTH 'on a beat to windward', and based upon our previous analysis, Yellow owes Green mark-room.


First, do you agree with my conclusions above in Scenario #1 and #2? .. and if so ..

Q1) Why does this make any sense or consistency? Why would we want the rules to favor Green over Blue?
Q2) Do we really want this scenario to devolve into apposed accounts of how close one boat's sails were in when they reached the zone?

Ang
Created: 18-Feb-05 16:07
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
1
I have a new argument.

Rule 18.1 states:

When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,

Some of you are saying that (a) above does not apply as Red is not on a beat. I propose that " on a beat to Windward" is speaking about the course leg, not the boats. Hear me through. Let's say a boat overstands a mark and has to turn downwind to return to the Mark, is this now an off wind mark? Of course not!

18.1 a is talking about the leg of the course, its an up wind mark of the course. This rule applies. Rule 10, starboard over Port, Green is ROW, Red must keep clear.

Created: 18-Feb-05 16:09
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
So funny Peter .. we were doing that simultaneously. :-)

That's what I was getting to with my .. singular form of 'on a beat to windward' .. when discussing "boats". It still doesn't seem to me that we are talking about individual states of boats but a general state of the boats on the race course.

Ang
Created: 18-Feb-05 16:13
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
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Ang,

Great minds think alike and apparently at the same time!

Peter
Created: 18-Feb-05 16:22
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
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What I would like to know is how you guys draw all those cool diagrams? Please.

Peter
Created: 18-Feb-05 16:24
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
I'm using a free software called Boats, but others are using a more updated version I believe ..

http://boats.sourceforge.net/

Ang
Created: 18-Feb-05 16:26
David Allsebrook
Nationality: Canada
0
Hi Peter
There is some appeal in the notion that 18.1(a) is determined by whether the leg is to windward. What happens if the wind shift to let some boats go on a close reach? If all boats are no longer on a reach?
I am wondering about the purpose of the rule. Why do the RRS take the beating scenario out of Rule 18 at all? What is the practical reason?
Best regards
David

Created: 18-Feb-05 16:32
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
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Ang,

Thanks, seems they have a Mac version. May there be a IOS app?

Peter
Created: 18-Feb-05 16:34
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
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Hi David A., How's the Soling sailing?

If I ruled the world, it would read

On a Windward leg of the course

That is how I interpret 18.1 a. Using that interpetation, it does not matter if a wind shift occurs.

On an upwind leg, 18 does not apply.

Peter
Created: 18-Feb-05 16:42
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
I take back my retraction. I'm going with my original post after thinking about my drawing a bit longer (and making a better one below).

I'm back on the side (along with Peter D. and John S.) of "on a beat to windward" IS NOT a description of a "both-boat requirement" when the first of them enters the zone, but rather refers to their 'state of racing' .. in that they were racing on a beat to windward.

I've changed my drawing to illustrate the point ...

(Two 2-boat Scenarios, not One 3-boat scenario)


If one adheres to the 'both boats have to be on a beat to windward' when reaching the zone for RRS 18.1.a to turn-off RRS 18, then you have ...

Scenario #1, Blue and Yellow 'on a beat to windward', when Blue reaches the zone .. therefore 18.1.a turns off 18 and we resort to RRS 10 to sort it out .. no mark-room owed.
Scenario #2, Green and Yellow are NOT BOTH 'on a beat to windward' as Green reaches the zone, and based upon our previous analysis, Yellow owes Green mark-room.

Now it's clear that in both scenarios just outside zone ... Yellow v Blue and Yellow v Green ... that both boats were "on a beat to windward" as they approached the zone and now the only difference is the timing of when either Blue or Green came off the wind.

I find it hard to believe that the rules should be interpreted such that Blue does not get mark-room while Green does .. with the only difference that Green had fallen-off from a close-hauled course prior to entering the zone.

Ang
Created: 18-Feb-05 18:34
Michael Turner
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
Interesting discussion.. my first thought was that this was a simple 18.1(a) but having read the submissions I can see both sides of the discussion having some merit.

I think that Case 132 is misleading.

18.1(a) says "between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward", it does not say '..both boats on a beat to windward'. I agree with Peter and Ang in the reference to "..on a beat to windward" should be taken as one or the other being on or having been on a beat to windward.

If you look at this in the context of a weather mark rounding, there is no question that 18 would not apply (because of 18.1(b)) and port would give way to starboard. So, how can it make any sense that in the exact same situation, that starboard would now have to give room (give way) to port, but ONLY if port was overstanding the mark and port did not have to tack to cross the finish line. This is inviting chaos at the finish line. How is starboard to know if port is actually below close-hauled as they approach each other in the zone? It also encourages any boat approaching the finish on port to simply be just above the port layline and they will be entitled to room - that's neither fair nor safe..

I don't think the rule needs to be changed, but Case 132 might need to be re-thought.

MT
Created: 18-Feb-06 05:25
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Bill Handley, since you took position that RRS 18 is turned-on in this situation, can you look at my last drawing and comment?

Would you say that Green gets room and Blue does not?

Always look forward to your insights.

Ang
Created: 18-Feb-06 14:44
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Richardo .. in your PDF Team racing D9 & Case 76 are referenced. Both have been pulled. - Ang
Created: 18-Feb-06 19:30
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0

Scenario #1, Blue and Yellow 'on a beat to windward', when Blue reaches the zone .. therefore 18.1.a turns off 18 and we resort to RRS 10 to sort it out .. no mark-room owed.

When Blue bear away and become not on a beat to windward the rules 18.1 and 18.2(a) turns on at once and Blue acquires the right to mark-room
Created: 18-Feb-06 19:53
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
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It is better to have a rule that says what it means.
Case 132 says what it means, clearly and correctly.
18.1(a) says what we each thought it meant, but now it says something that we are each re-interpreting.
It needs to be changed.
Created: 18-Feb-06 19:59
Ricardo Lobato
Nationality: Brazil
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
0
Good point Angelo,

Case 76 was wrong because the issue we are discussing. The diference was that the boat that overstood the mark was on starboard tack and she wanted to luff to finish (the question is if 16 applies)
http://rcyc.co.za/files/20132016ISAFCaseBookUpdatedJan2014-16129.pdf

D9 is more complicate... X and A on port to round the upwind mark. X is inside and windward and, under the definition of mark-room, she is entitle to room to tack to round the mark. But then, when she pass head to wing, they are boats on opposite tacks and they are on a beat to windward, or, if they overstood, at least one of then has to tack. The racing rules don´t work well here too.
https://www.sonar.org/site/files/Library/RRS_%2526_ERS/TeamRacingCallBook%202009%202012.pdf
Created: 18-Feb-06 20:11
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Ricardo, Case 76 (now invalid) seemed to share the interpretation that "boats .. on a beat to windward" was referring to the character of the leg they were racing on and not each boat's point-of-sail when they meet...

Created: 18-Feb-06 20:32
Ricardo Lobato
Nationality: Brazil
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
0
Yes Angelo, the case was wrong. S is not on a beat to windward at positions 1 and 2. So, she wound be exonerated if she breaks 16 (rule 21).The problem is that, at some point between 2 and 3, she is back to a beat to windward. This isn´t very simple...
Created: 18-Feb-06 20:47
Paul Hanly
Nationality: Australia
0
I think I get the issues.
1. None of the clauses which provide an exclusion of the operation of Rule 18 apply in this case. (Red's proper course to finisih is not to tack, merely to shoot the line at the mark. She will have finished before she passes head to wind. Red is not on a beat to windward..
2 Rules 18 therefore applies as its operation is not excluded by any part of 18.1
3 The closing sentence of the definition of overlap makes them overlapped in spite of being on opposite tacks, irrespective of which hits the zone first (the diagram is of the very rare case of simultaneously reaching the zone.
4. Green on starboard should have allowed mark room to the port tack boat, Red, as it was not close hauled and therefore not on a beat to windward.

Sometimes boats sailing different courses are finishing at the same mark so just because one is on a leg that is a beat doesn't mean every other boat is on a leg that is a beat. This happens in multi-division twilight races where faster boats sail a longer course and approach the finish from a different second last mark than slower boats. At our club some legs can go around a point and are a beat to get to the point but then a reach to another point then a then run to the finish, but there are no marks at those changes of direction, just landforms. We need to think theses problems through without assuming that everyone is sailing in completely open water with legs uninterrupted by land forms.

PC's already deal with difficult issues of judgement such as when has a tacking boat passed head to wind and when has it gained a close hauled course and when is it reasonable to commence to avoid a collision or to call for room to tack. This is just another example where the PC has to determine if a boat was on a beat (close hauled) or not.
Created: 18-Feb-07 04:34
Bill Handley
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • National Judge
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Ange - sorry for the delay in commenting but we have had over 25 ft of snow so far here this season and going out ant trashing the powder is turning into a full time job.

In your scenarios I think that rule 18 applies in both cases. The fact that blue is close hauled when she reaches the zone is irrelevant, Case 132 states that a boat is on a beat to windward when her proper course (the course she would sail to finish a quickly as possible) is close hauled or above. Before blue entered the zone her proper course according to the definition was to bear away to the finish. As her proper course from some time before she entered the zone was to sail below close hauled then she is not on a beat to windward.

I tend to agree that case 132 seems to be the problem and the "definition" of being on a beat to windward has unintended consequences. That having been said as it is a WS case it is binding on us for good or bad.
Created: 18-Feb-07 04:35
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
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Thanks Bill .. I remain unconvinced by Case 132 as if you read it carefully, it is only describing when a single boat is on a beat, not when boats are on a beat.

When you take Case 76 (withdrawn for reworking), it definitely supported the broader definition (which ruled since ~1980).

In my mind, this is unintentional as ..

1) I can't see the reason that a port-tacker on the layline does not get room, but a boat that overstands by 2 boat lengths does get room.
2) How a STB boat is supposed to tell that a Port tacker over stood by 2 boat lengths .. 1 boat length .. 1/2 boat length? How far off the wind is far enough for Room to appear?

Maybe if/when Case 76 comes back, it will reinforce the original interpretation. Until then, I think applying Case 132 interpretation is unworkable for boats on the water.

So below ..
Magenta and Blue = No Room
Red and Orange = Room
Green just above the layline = Room? .. no Room?


Created: 18-Feb-07 14:29
Bill Handley
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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Ange - as judges it is up to us to apply the rules as written and interpreted by the cases, not as we would like them to have been written or how we feel they were intended to be written.

The view that rule 18.1 is referring to a leg of the course and not the point of sailing of a boat when it talks about being "on a beat to windward" is seductive but ultimately flawed both technically and practically. Technically if that was the case then 18.1(b) would be redundant. As 18.2(b) is to deal specifically where the boats are not close hauled it can only mean that "on a beat to windward" in 18.1(a) refers to a situation when they are. Practically if a beat to windward is any leg where boats tack then on a shifty day it would be possible for boats to have tacked on a leg of the course and still arrive at the next mark on a run. This would mean that technically they would be on a beat to windward and an inside running port tacker would not be entitled to mark room from an outside running starboard tacker at the they would be on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.
Created: 18-Feb-08 01:33
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
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  • Regional Umpire
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Bill Handley,

So, you are saying that is the direction of a boat at the time of the incident that determines if the exclusion applies. In this case, one boat is on a beat the other is not, so which is it?

The rule must be describing the leg of the course. You can't have it both ways.

Peter Dubé

Created: 18-Feb-08 02:15
Bill Handley
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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I am not in the habit of trying to have things both ways. I simply read what the rules say and apply them. Rules 18.1(a) dis applies rule 18 "between boats (note the use of the plural) on opposite tacks on a beat to windward". If one boat is on a beat and the other is not the the boats (note the plural again) are not on a beat to windward - one is and one isn't. In that case the dis application is ineffective. I am being entirely consistent in my interpretation.

As I said in my original post, if it is describing the leg of the course please explain the purpose of 18.1(b). - that is having it both ways
Created: 18-Feb-08 02:36
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
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Bill,

Sorry, sometimes I do sound belligerent. No disrespect intended.
I do see both sides of this argument.
I still believe that it makes more sense (to me) that the rules are talking about course leg. Why would it apply a different rule because one of the boats is at larger angle to the mark?

Is there an official definition of "a beat to windward"?

Red could intentionally overstand the mark to gain inside rights when if he sail a proper angle to the mark he would have none.

Peter Dube
Created: 18-Feb-08 03:10
Peter Dubé
Nationality: United States of America
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Now I officially do not like the rule. I read case 132. there is no question that Red is entitled to room under the current rules as written.

Case 132

Rule 18.1(a), Mark-Room: When Rule 18 Applies

Rule 42.3(c), Propulsion: Exceptions

A boat is “on a beat to windward” when the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of all other boats is a close-hauled course or above.

Question

The phrase “on a beat to windward” is used in rules 18.1(a) and 42.3(c). When is a boat on a beat to windward?

Answer

For the purposes of rules 18.1(a) and 42.3(c), a boat is on a beat to windward when the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of all other boats is a close-hauled course or above. When a boat is on a windward leg, she is not necessarily on a beat to windward. An example is a boat that has overstood a windward mark and, in the absence of other boats, would therefore sail below close-hauled to finish as soon as possible. Such a boat may have overstood the mark either by sailing beyond the layline to the mark or because a change in wind direction has made it possible for her to sail to the mark on a course below close-hauled.

Also, when a boat is on a reaching or a downwind leg, there are circumstances in which she may be on a beat to windward. This can happen when a boat has been swept by current below the rhumb-line to a reaching mark, or there has been a change in wind direction, and as a result the course the boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of other boats has become a close-hauled course or above.

Created: 18-Feb-08 03:18
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Thanks Bill, as always you make great points with solid analysis behind them.
I hope a future change in either a case or the rules makes it so that the boats in my five 2-boat scenarios either get room or not in a clearly determinable way by a boat on the opposite tack - Ang
Created: 18-Feb-08 04:22
Paul Hanly
Nationality: Australia
0
Philosophically the port tacker, being a fundamental give way boat under the basic rules, ought not get any precedence over a starboard tack boat unless the exception is clearly stated.
Then the question becomes how to have orderly mark roundings and the answer is the regime under 18 for mark roundings and giving preference to a boat on arrival at the zone if it is already overlapped on the inside
Then the question is what to do with an inside overlapped (in a general sense) boat that is on port tack when the competitor is on starboard and would normally have rights.
My preference would be for a competitor on port to have to cede to one on starboard exactly the same as for a the basic give way rule. In which case I would treat the reference to beat to windward as being in relation to the leg of the course, thereby not advantaging a port tacker over a starboard tacker.
The mark rule in plain english is "take away the windward mark between boats on opposite tacks" which is shorthand for starboard tackers ignore inside overlaps of port tackers.
But what if the two boats are in different divisions and coming to a mark from different marks, one boat on a windward leg and the other not? That might be more complicated.
Whoever find themselves in the position of Red in close reaching to a finish mark they have overstood on a beat would in my view lose at protest committee hearing and can then proceed to appeal.
The idea that a boat can not be on a beat just because it overstands or bears away or foots for speed and gain rights over a starboard tacker is not on unless the rules are perfectly clear that that is what applies.
RRS 18 is to simplify mark roundings and make them orderly. Favouring a port tacker because they have overstood a bit and are on a close reach rather than close hauled is anathema to clear, simple, orderly mark roundings.
Created: 18-Feb-08 23:18
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
I retract my prior opinions:
It seems to me now that 18.1(a) and 18.1(b) are unnecessary gatekeepers to 18.2.
The meat is in 18.2 which only applies to overlapped boats, which cannot occur between opposite tack boats unless both are sailing downwind and neither is clear astern of the other.
The boats in the original question are not overlapped, as they are on opposite tacks and not sailing more than 90 degrees to the wind.
18 does not apply between them.
Each part of RRS 18 begins "when boats are overlapped."
THe definition of overlapped does not change with RRS 18.
RRS 10 applies.
Created: 18-Feb-13 16:31
Paul Hanly
Nationality: Australia
0
@ Philip Hubbell
It seems to me you are ignoring the opening words of the last sentence in the definition of overlap. " They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind."
Created: 18-Feb-13 23:41
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Oh, cripes.
So the fix is to delete "when rule 18 applies between them or" ?
Leaving only the 90 degree part, which can limit opposite tack 18 application to downwind marks?
And delete 18.1(a) altogether as immaterial? And (b)?
Created: 18-Feb-14 01:24
Bill Handley
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
The definition is quite clear - these boats are overlapped if rule 18 applies between them.
Rule 18.1 is equally clear in that rule 18 applies if one of them is in the zone at mark they have to leave on the same side which is the case here.
Rules 18.1(a)(b)(c) and (d) dis apply rule 18 if the conditions contained in them are met.
The conditions to dis apply rule 18 are not met so rule 18 applies and the boats are overlapped.
Created: 18-Feb-14 01:25
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Russian Federation
0

Now this question is closed -

Case 132 is changed

Created: 18-Dec-03 18:59
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