| Rules | ||
|---|---|---|
| Racing Rules of Sailing for 2013-2016; Version 6 | December 2015 | |
| Racing Rules of Sailing for 2017-2020 | August 2017 | |
| Racing Rules of Sailing for 2021-2024 | December 2020 | |
| Prescriptions | ||
| Australia | July 2017 | |
| Canada | November 2019 | |
| Great Britain - RYA has declined to grant a license for prescriptions and cases. | November 2019 | |
| New Zealand | July 2017 | |
| United States | February 2017 | |
| Cases | ||
| World Sailing Cases | February 2022 | |
| World Sailing Q&As | March 2022 | |
| Match Race Calls | January 2020 | |
| Match Race Rapid Response Calls | October 2018 | |
| Team Race Calls | December 2018 | |
| Team Race Rapid Response Calls | February 2016 | |
| CAN Cases | October 2017 | |
| RYA Cases | November 2019 | |
| US Appeals | November 2019 | |
| Manuals | ||
| World Sailing Judges Manual | December 2019 | |
I believe they are overlapped on opposite tacks as the are subject to rule 18 see definition Clear Ahead.
It appears from the diagram that they are sailing farther from the mark than entitled. Where I yellow, I would protest that. In blue's case, she could claim she was compelled to break the rule by red. Red currently is preventing blue from gybing and fulfilling her obligations to sail to the mark.
Assuming there is no collision and no damage or injury because 18 maneuvers to avoid. Yellow Protests the port tack boats for taking excessive room and failing to avoid a Starboard boat. Both are found to violate rule 18 and 10, but blue is exonerated. Red is DSQed (unless she took her required penalty).
That's my call, anyway.
ANDFrom position 1, both red and blue are entitled to mark-room from Yellow.
At position 1.8 (just before 2) as keep clear boats( rule 10), mark room is room to sail close to the mark, which they are not doing. They, then, can't be exonerated for a breach of rule 10.
Rule 18.4 doesn't apply, as it is a gate, but this doesn't change the size of the room described in mark room.
At position 2, it appears too late for red to keep clear of Yellow. Yellow will have to take avoiding action to comply with rule 14. Red breaks rule 10 and possibly 14 if contact.
Blue is not either sailing within the mark-room she's entitled to, rule 10 applies and she can keep clear of Yellow by luffing and crossing behind. If she does so, she breaks no rule.
In the relation between Blue and Red, Blue can't blame Red (ROW against Blue) as 18.4 doesn't apply, and, may be, some of the boats want or wanted to go the port mark of the gate.
Is Blue within her corridor because the corridor includes space to keep clear of Red? I fully admit that I'd prefer if the rule exonerated Blue if she gets squeezed between Yellow and Red.
Also, I agree that we need deets on the conditions and boats... if these boats are foiling (and need very high angles) as they come in, does the corridor allow them to continue to foil at these high angles?
RRS 18.4 does not apply because the mark is a gate mark.
@2 the mark-room B is entitled to is room to sail to the mark, that is, the 'direct corridor from @1 to the mark, and B is not sailing within this corridor.
But the room B is entitled to includes space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2, that is, to keep clear of R.
B is sailing within the room to which she is entitled and is exonerated if she breaks RRS 10 with respect to Y.
@2 the mark-room R is entitled to is room to sail to the mark, that is, the 'direct corridor from @1 to the mark, and R is not sailing within this corridor.
@2 R has no further entitlement to room or mark-room.
R is not sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled, and if she breaks RRS 10 with respect to Y, is not exonerated.
Depending on the existing conditions and characteristics of boats @2 it may still be possible for R to gybe to the mark and keep clear of Y.
But from the diagram, @2 Y can't change course to windward without hitting B, so her only option to avoid contact with R is to bear away, so:
Suppose @2+delta, Y bears away to avoid R:
These are hot angles (reaches) that are normal for a planing dinghy or skiff like a 505 in moderate and windy conditions, but not for slower boats. So, people on this thread need to know more to understand where the laylines are, and thus determine if Red is taking too much room.
Did you have the rules open in front of you when you wrote your post of Created: Today 16:29?
When discussing rules problems it is helpful, both to ourselves in doing our analysis, and to others in understanding it if we use the language of the rules (and Cases). Looking carefully at the current version of the rules will help to do this.
Note also that RRS 18.4 does not apply.
RRS 18.2 creates an entitlement to mark-room. A boat entitled to mark-room, except for RRS 18.4, which does not apply in this case, cannot break RRS 18.
What can happen, is she can break some other Part 2 rule (not keep clear, not give room to keep clear) and, if she is not sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, not be exonerated.
Hint: as others have posted, B has room to change course to windward and keep clear of Y by passing astern of her.
And boats 'break' rules, they do not 'violate' or 'infringe' them, and
B and R fail to 'keep clear' of Y, and break RRS 10, the word 'avoid' in this sense is only used RRS 20 and 22.
Except for RRS 18.4, which does not apply to this scenario because it is a gate, why do you think the laylines (which I think implies something about proper course) affect the mark-room to which boats are entitled?
Even if R/B's proper course is to go 'in wide, out tight' that still means that her proper course is to 'sail close to the mark', so her initial mark-room is still the direct corridor from the point where she enters the zone to the mark,
I wouldn't say B was within the corridor: she's plainly not, and Case 75 doesn't allow the corridor to get bulged out because of R sailing outside it.
I'd rather say that B's mark-room, in the presence of R was not the direct corridor, but room to comply with her Part 2 obligations. If you wanted to play around with words, you could say she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled rather than within the mark-room.
The question is, is it possible, however disadvantageous, for boats to sail dead down wind to the mark? I've said before, that even for performance skiffs, this is possible, even though comparatively slow and awkward. I think a foiling Moth could do it. I don't know about the bigger foilers.
But note that for foiling events they usually use somewhat different rules, quite likely referring mark-room to proper course.
Red and Blue are sailing to the other gate P. No intention to round the S gate.
Red thinks she will cross Yellow. Blue's option is to bail out. Gray boats are 'desired' course for Red.
The only rules involved are 10 and 14.
It does not look too good for Red. Yellow will need to demonstrate that she did all she could to avoid Red to satisfy 14.
Kim
They are in the zone of Mark S overlapped inside Y. Y is required to give them mark-room to sail to and around Mark S, so as discussed in the previous scenario, R is sailing outside her corridor and will not be exonerated if she breaks RRS 10, but B is entitled to room to keep clear of R, and is sailiing within the room to which she is entitled, and is exonerated if she breaks RRS 10.
At the point you have diagrammed, Y well and truly has a reasonable apprehension of collision, but she has not changed course to avoid, so RRS 10 is not yet broken.
As long as Y doesn't change course to windward and hit B or force B into an unseamanlike manoeuvre to keep clear, the only rules in play between Y and R are RRS 10 and 14.
I'd be satisfied that Y can't change course to leeward without hitting R (different if these were Optis, but not with spin boats).
Y could try a slight change to windward and try to thread the needle, but if she contacted R I'd be happy to say this was a Case 87 situation where 'the time between the moment it became clear that [R] would not keep clear and the time of the collision was a very brief interval, so brief that it was impossible for [Y] to avoid contact. Therefore, [Y]did not break rule 14'.
(combining two parts of John A's explanation)
John you said (quoting Anthony)
If I were to hazard to guess, Anthony is referring to Case 75’s description of S’s ability to arguably sail even wider from the mark because it might have been her proper course to do so.
From Case 75 … (emphasis added)
As you point out, US20 terms this a “tactical rounding”, but I could certainly see how someone might refer to the above as a ‘proper course rounding’ based on the description in Case 75.
PS: The difference is that in Case 75, rule 18.4 applies and thus the consideration of the “proper course”. This scenario is a gate, 18.4 is off, thus the utility of “tactical rounding” which removes that confusion.
Just to be clear in what you are saying above … ?
Conclusion: Blue is sailing within the MR she is entitled to from Yellow because Blue’s MR includes room to keep clear of Red, even though Red is sailing outside the MR Red is entitled to from Yellow.
???
Yes, B SOL.
If it weren't for her entitlement to room to keep clear of R, B would be way outside the mark-room she was entitled to, so I wouldn't be too sorry for her.
Yes. I can't see any other logical path through the rules. Can you?
As I said to Nicholas Created: Today 00:26
I think it’s important to put MR front and center as that is the foundation of the room relationship between Yellow and Blue (w/o course change by Yellow).
Re: “Yes. I can't see any other logical path through the rules. Can you?”
No, just wanted to present it in a simplistic, MR centric way because of the juxtaposition of Red being outside her MR, but Blue still being in.
Cannot find anywhere a rule that compels R to sail around the S gate. 18.4 is not in play.
R has an issue with Y, R 10, or the other way around.
Kim
Now, Red is ROW to both Blue and Yellow and can continue to the starboard gate if she chooses (as long as she doesn’t break 16.1) because she is both ROW and unrestricted by 18.4.
OP dwg below for easy comparison …
I really debated whether I should respond to you. I ultimately decided I had to correct a couple of errors. But I think we should continue this in email if you want, rather than take over this thread. Feel free to email me. But I won't respond on this thread concerning this again.
First, in answer to your question, I did have the rules open and consulted them. You may not have noticed but I quoted a case specifically, which i thought would have made clear I was consulting text.
But, more importantly, I believe you are badly in error in some of your "corrections" of me.
First, "mark room" ABSOLUTELY includes room to execute seamanlike maneuvers required to sail to the mark and pass on the required side. I'm sure you understand the physics of sailing well enough to know that Red has to gybe in order to sail to the mark and pass on the required side without violating rule 31. With respect to Yellow, she is ABSOLUTELY entitled to room to execute that gybe in a seamanlike manner. Yes, in this case, she has sailed outside the path required to do that, as I said.
Secondly, "tactical" is not defined in the rules, but "proper course" is. Thus, it is better to say that an inside ROW boat is entitled to sail her proper course to round the mark, rather than to say that she can take a tactical rounding.
Note that 18.4 only limits what an inside ROW boat can do (sail no farther than needed to sail her proper course around the mark). Whether it is a gate or not, an Inside ROW boat can sail her proper course to round the mark.
Now, you may object to me shortening the phrase "sail her proper course to round to the mark" to "proper-course rounding."
You are entitled to that opinion. It is the wording Dave Perry preferred in a recent conversation I had with him. So, at least there is room for disagreement on it. I'm going to stick with using defined terms where possible.
contact me at doc(at)docpelletier(dot)com if you wish to converse.
-Tony
I cannot find in Cata's first submission the fact that the boats are all rounding the S gate, hence the introduction of the option for R and possibly B to sail to the P gate.
They are in the S gate Zone, but we do not know if that was their desired course. Judging from the R and B's heading, there are some doubts about them rounding the S gate. Sailing to the edge of the zone and right in front of an S boat has me curious.
Add a little current to the picture and it will make more sense for them to go to the P gate.
Obviously, all that would be flushed out in a hearing.
Kim
It makes no difference to the application of the rules in this scenario.
If all boats are going to the S gate, then yes. The OP does not state so.
Since 18.4 does not require a boat to gybe, R and B could have chosen to sail to the P gate and are not concerned with 18 at the S gate.
Consider also the 'advantage' (markroom) both R and B have on Y, if they sail to the S gate mark. What made them not to take the S gate and sail to the edge of the zone? B may be a victim of not planning well or wishful thinking R would gybe and sail to the S gate earlier.
Kim
What I was trying to do by flipping Cat’s OP diagram, and discuss the contrast between the versions, is to show that boats on starboard at one gate wanting to sail to the other have more power to choose that cross-gate path than boats on port (they leverage their ROW to maneuver rather than relying upon room-entitlement to maneuver).
Even though R & B might not be ‘concerned’ about the S-gate in terms of planning to round it, they need to be concerned that once they sail outside the S-gate MR each individually is entitled to, they don’t have access to 43.1(b) exoneration for breaking RRS 10 when meeting starboard tack boats.
Yes, since 18.4 does not apply, they are not required to round the S-gate. But, the absence of 18.4 does not convey any rights-of-way or special room-entitlement to sail to the P-gate. I think this is consistent with what John is saying as well when he says their ‘desire’ has no impact. Red has to keep clear of Yellow under rule 10 and is only exonerated for breaking rule 10 when she is sailing in the S-gate MR she is entitled to. At position 2, IMO, Red is sailing outside that MR.
At a gate 18.4 does not apply
A boat's intended gate does not affect their obligations.
If a boat is inside, she gets room
If she's on starboard, she gets to sail to her preferred gate, limited by room and other Part 2 obligations.
In the OP, B & R are on port and Y is on starboard,
Just like I said before:
Red thinks she will cross Yellow (for whatever the reason). I see no intention to round the S gate by Red. Blue's option is to bail out.
The only rules involved in this scenario are 10 and 14.
It does not look too good for Red. Yellow will need to demonstrate that she did all she could to avoid Red to satisfy 14.
Kim