Forum: Race Committee & Race Management

Choice of Line Video and Mark Range Finder

Alan Algeo
May I ask members of this forum with experience in using Race Committee Vessel and Pin-end Video Recorders on Start/Finish lines, and/or Range Finders to check distances greater than 400 metres to Marks, etc., for advice and recommendations as to which Type, make, and model I should purchase?
(We use Golf range finders for line length, which are an economical solution for line length ) 
                                                                                  
Perhaps a few links to their own recordings would be helpful to us all?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

Created: Mon 15:25

Comments

Format:
Yorick Klipfel
Hunting range finders are better than golfers (and waterproof...).
Just add some SOLAS reflecting tape on the RIB console/buoy to get a clean signal.
Alternatively, your pin team could use a GPS / MOB function to the signal boat, very easy... 
Created: Mon 16:10
Dominique Géniaux
I use Himimi EF01G (avail. on Amazon) up to 800m
Main problem is to find a target such as another commitee boat , second problem is you're always mooving especially on a small boat
Created: Mon 16:25
Hans Cimutta
A club I recently volunteered with uses older Smartphones for video recording purposes. They are water tight and if get them from a company they are very affordable or even free. Battery life is the biggest concern they had to deal with, especially if you are also using a gps app on them for distance and positioning. 
Created: Mon 16:27
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Michael Butterfield
Not so many start videos as you needa dedicated operator.
Finish, i pad or samsung tablet seems to be the preferred option. A good sturdy possibly a waterproof case with a handhold on the back. 
I use hunting laser from leopold, i also have their binoculars which onntain a compass and laser rangefinder. 

Over 300,m lines are generally set in meters by gps. My gps at this distance dafaults to meters, but it is set for longer distanced to nautical mikes. 

I think the windy company do rangefinders but i do not have one. 

Mike
Created: Mon 16:28
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18044 - Michael Butterfield
i also have their binoculars which onntain a compass and laser rangefinder. 
Wow Mike .. while reading that ...all of a sudden the James Bond theme song started playing in my head :-)
Created: Tue 15:09
Nick Hutton
iPad or tablet for start and finish recording. Bigger screen than a phone. Buoy Zone for mark laying. Shows position of the mark boat on the RO’s phone as well as providing the correct mark position to the mark layers. Hunting or golf range finder for starting lines, but Buoy Zone achieves this as well and is better for the not-so-common use of lines over 350 metres. 
Created: Mon 16:51
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Michael Butterfield
After gift times Christmas, thanksgiving etc lots of these items dropped on e bay. 
Created: Mon 16:53
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Start and finish recorder - GoPro Hero 11 Black with a flexible clamp mount that can be attached to the flag staff or rail next to it.  While the image is very wide angle, it's also very high resolution (4K) and best of all - electronically stabilized. The micro SD card is easily removed and transferred to a laptop computer for review. VLC Video Player allows you to zoom in on any part of the image.  It also records audio better than most handheld voice recorders (no wind noise).

Voice recorder - Sony ICD-PX470 Digital Voice Recorder (about $70 USD). I prefer using it rather than a phone. You can tie the lanyard to the starting staff at head level and leave it there. It's not waterproof, but will work inside a plastic bag. Recordings can be downloaded to a computer via the built-in USB connector.

Range finder - Bushnell Prime 1300 (discontinued). It's a hunting range finder that is 100% waterproof and good to about 800 meters - if you can get a good shot on the object at that distance. Accuracy is < 0.1 m

Consumer-grade GPS is accurate to about 10 m, although it is often more accurate than that (GPS accuracy is a statistical function similar to a bell curve.)  In general, short distances (< 0.1 nm / 185 m) are best measured with the range finder; longer distances are best measured with GPS.

BouyZone is a great product, but it is very difficult to drive to a waypoint than away from one due to the accuracy issues. (This was a problem with early drone software - the drone would "circle the drain" when approaching a waypoint.) It also requires a certain level of commitment from the mark boat operators.  I am just returning from an international event in Mexico where the mark layers were local fishermen and they would not have been willing to use BuoyZone.  
Created: Mon 21:00
Nick Hutton
Agree with your comments about range finders being better than GPS over short distances. And 10-metre accuracy is usually fine for turning marks. Not sure I understand your comment about Buoy Zone being ‘very difficult to drive to a waypoint than away from one’. Can you please expand on that? My experience  is that one of BZ’s great advantages is that anyone with a smartphone and a boat licence can be an instant mark layer. 
Created: Mon 21:23
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Nick, when you drive away from a waypoint, your "ping" is a fixed point - it's whatever the GPS "saw" at that instance.  Therefore, when you are at distance, you are measuring a distance / angle to that fixed point. The error in the GPS current position is inconsequential.

When driving to a waypoint, the closer you get to it, the more unstable the reading on the GPS gets - it's ahead of you at first, then the bearing changes rapidly as you approach the waypoint.  It could be be beside you, behind you, etc. The GPS will "hunt" trying to find the exact position, and it changes every time the GPS updates its position. That's why it's called "circling the drain" - moving in a spiral trying to home in on the waypoint.
Created: Tue 22:33
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Alan Algeo said he had experienced up to 100m discrepancies.  I can't say I've ever seen anything like this, for a settled or slow moving gps.

I understand that this is sometimes a problem with BuoyZone.  Because it relies on the cellphone network, when connectivity is poor, BouyZone can be a bit laggy.

I think the problem can be minimised by approaching the mark position in the direction of the axis.  GPS/BuoyZone quite likes to go in straight lines.

A red hot IRO or TD might be worried by a windward mark 10m left or right of the desired position, but he or she will hardly quibble about plus or minus 10m in leg length.

And unless they've got Mike's Bionic Rangefinder Binocs, they'll never know.
Created: Tue 23:54
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Rangefinders, you get what you pay for.

Some golf range finders are cheap, but they have small exit pupils and are difficult to focus with (for example, I have to take off my glasses to use mine).  More expensive ones have bigger lenses and are easier to use.

Ordinary digital voice recorders have excellent microphones, I wear mine on a lanyard round my neck (with the rest of my RO Christmas Tree).  Just dangling down on the lanyard it will pick up everything I say, plus the starting count from the timekeeper or electronic system a couple of metres away.  No need to hold it up near your face.
Created: Mon 21:09
‫Shlomo Goldstein
Using a rangefinder for more than 300-350 meters is a bit problematic because of the stability problem. Basically I measure the range to the boat that throws the buoy and not to the flag. After that, if the change is +/- 10 meters, it has no meaning. For longer ranges I prefer to use GPS
Created: Tue 07:08
Alan Algeo
Thank you all for replies.  There seems to be a general consensus about range finders being best for line distances so I’ll stay with my €70 version which is idiot proof 😄
EE4AD3D1-9C17-41C6-8B0C-C0C095B63DE5.jpeg 2.52 MB

Thanks to Matt for suggesting the 
GoPro Hero 11 Black. I’ve researched it further and it ranks very highly in surveys especially waterproof to 30 meters and clever stabiliser / always level features.
And to Yorick Klipfel for his SOLAS tape idea.

I have a similar system to Buoyzone which I also have on trial and I do understand the problem about it being “very difficult to drive to a waypoint than away from one due to the accuracy issues. (This was a problem with early drone software - the drone would "circle the drain" when approaching a waypoint.”
I just went outside into a clear area well away from my house and pinned my blue dot position.   As I suspected it walks sometimes as much as 100 metres from where I stand.  I’ve done this several times before with the same result. It seems to be some inbuilt error perhaps for military reasons ?
I fing the App great for setting the course before I ever go near a  race area.
Thanks  
 
Great forum.  Thank you
Created: Tue 17:14
Nick Hutton
Thank you Matt Bounds. 
Created: Tue 23:19
Sandy Grosvenor
Like Matt, I am a big fan of GoPros for start/finish line recording.   

I wear mine "geek style" mounted on a ball cap that I wear (amazon sells the ball caps with the go pro mount for under $20 US).  For starts, I narrow down the field of view to focus the 5k resolution on the start line.   Since the camera is on a ball cap, it records whatever I am looking without my having to think about it.  I just have to remember to  hit the record button (doh) and then I can focus on my job as a line sighter.  Don't need an extra person to play videographer.  No worries about the camera's field of view swaying out of view if the signal boat sails on her anchor.   The down side is that it's, well, it's pretty geeky looking.  And the video bounces when my head bounces (which I do surprisingly little of when calling starts :)

I also use the "geek cam" for doing rule 42 judging, it is fabulous for that.

For umpiring - I just got an Insta360 camera that is showing a lot of promise.  It shoots 360 degrees all the time, and its software is pretty good at taking out the fisheye component.  So for umpiring where your head is on a swivel you get a nice steady picture without the whiplash that my "geek cam" causes.  And I mount it on a stick and I don't look like a geek anymore. The insta doesn't work as well (IMHO) for RC line spotting as its 8k (in the newest edition) resolution is for the full 360 degrees, if you only care about say 15 of those degrees, the resolution drops  from 8k to 400 - not good enough to pick up much on a long starting line.    Probably would work well on a finish line tho' (haven't had that opportunity yet).
Created: Wed 00:58
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Sandy re: "I wear mine "geek style" mounted on a ball cap"

If ever a picture was worth a thousand words ... that'd be it :-)
Created: Wed 13:44
Sandy Grosvenor
100
Tips
Angelo - as if you haven't seen me in it several times ... but for the rest.. here's a pic
IMG_0109.jpeg 2.51 MB
Created: Wed 13:50
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Can I take it that Sandy is NOT the one on the right?
Created: Wed 23:42
Sue Reilly
Sandy - you are such a geek, and I mean that in the most respectful and jealous way. 
Created: Yesterday 14:29
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