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The Definition of Finish, (c) continues to sail the course
There are multiple races which have multipart courses. In these, a boat "finishes" Segment-1 of a multipart race and is sailing in the second (or third) segment. They are still "racing" in the subsequent Segment. Trophies are awarded for Segments in addition to Overall.
Thanks Beau, so in a two segment course, a boat crosses the finish line for Segment 1 and finishes Segment 1. She continues to to sail the course for Segment 2. But, the definition states "However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (c) continues to sail the course." Is this the Catch-22 Ang referred to?
I think there is some confusion about which Course one is talking about. In a segmented race, "The Course" is from the Start to the Finish for Segment 1. Then "The Course" is from the Start to the Finish of Segment 2 or per-SIs from the Finish of segment 1 to the Finish of segment 2.
In the case where there are multiple loops and someone is crossing the Finish during one or more of those loops, one has not Sailed The Course and then Finished. If the RC wishes to Shorten Course in either case, they are free to do so in accordance with the Rules.
EG: The course requires four laps around a loop and each lap includes the Finish Line. Until the final lap, or the RC shortens the course, a Yacht has not Finished the race despite transiting the Finish Line.
Jerry .. the construction of your OP question sets-up a Catch-22.
Based upon def: finish, as soon as you determine the condition of your question is satisfied .. "and then continues to sail the course?" ... that by definition makes the boat's finish-line crossing NOT a finish
Finish A boat finishes when, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
[...] (c)continues to sail the course.
We also have Case 148 (generated from a thread on RRoS.org) which discusses "when" a boat is considered to have continued to sail the course.
I was thinking about this just the other day. I think the case would be if you crossed the finish line the wrong way, then had to unwind, which would involve crossing back through (the "correct" direction--but not having sailed the course properly) that would not be a finish. You would then have to round the end and finish again properly.
Jerry ... at the most basic level, this language is in there to allow courses to be setup so that the starting pin is used as a rounding mark for multiple loops.
We did this all the time in the Magothy River north of Annapolis. After starting all the fleets, the RC would often flop to the other side of the starting-pin so it can be rounded to port or finished using the same approach. Often we would setup a "hopeful" # of loops ... but shorten by removing a last lap.
Thanks Jerry - that's what I get for not opening the book before answering. While I agree with the premise of Case 148, but with the new rules will have to wait till they finally get an updated Case book done. Someday.
A multi lap course where a boat has to finish the first lap to start the second lap. I used to sail this type of course all the time when I was growing up. Except we didn't have gate marks.
Something of a mess this definition and case 148. I don't see it remaining unchanged for very long! For the definition, consider a boat being unclear whether they have sailed the correct number of laps. They complete the race, cross the line, but being uncertain as to whether or not they have completed the race, sail another lap. The case requires the PC to make a dubious value judgement, including, to my mind, a judgement by the PC about what the crew were thinking rather than actual verifiable facts. Its not immediately apparent to me why its desirable for the boat that stops for a few seconds to discuss whether they have completed the race to be counted as having finished, and thus DSQ, and the boat that keeps moving while having the same discussion to be counted as not finished and able to complete the course and be placed.
Hey Jerry. What I meant was that if you cross the line the wrong way, you have to "unwind the string" by crossing the finish line in what is the correct direction (but would not count as a finish). Then you need to sail back around the end of the line and cross from the correct side again.
but isn't a finish line at the end of the last leg of a course?
On a multi-lap course, why is a boat not considered finished if, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finish line from the course side before completing all required laps?
The finish line is defined in the sailing instructions as a line between two finish marks. What rule or definition says that the finish line is at the end of the last leg of a course"?
This exception was introduced to enable the running of multi-lap races. Without it, such formats wouldn't be possible.
However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (c) continues to sail the course.
This (c) has been introduced in RRS of 2013 or 2017 (I don’t remember exactly when) for multi laps races when the finishing line is between the windward and the leeward marks and boat could cross the line while sailing the course. For instance, the first boats finish (blue flag on a mast of a race committee boat) while the lasts are sailing to the finishing line and then are crossing the line but have one or more laps to do in order to comply with the number of laps to sail the course as written in the SIs.
What if boats were advised that, after finishing, they must take their R.C. boats out of the water at a dedicated area on the "finish" side of the finishing line (i.e. to avoid interfering with boats on the course side). If a boat finished, say 10th, but then sailed outside the shore-side finish mark and crossed the extension of the line (not back through the finishing line), then, remembering to take the boat out of the water on the other side at the designated area, sailed back across through the finish line (i.e. crossing a second time) recording 20th, should she be scored 10th or 20th?
If the sailor cleared the finish line and marks after finishing, then he was no longer racing. The only way to get back to racing is through a start sequence. The sailor would need to be careful about sailing among boats still racing or risk breaking RRS 23.1. So, if he cleared the line he was done racing, score him the first time he crossed the finish line. If he didn't clear the line and marks, he was still racing, score the second time he crossed the finish line.
History – The clause, (c) continues to sail the course, was added to the definition of Finish in the 2013-2016 RRS. Submission 251-11 contains the following:
“Many race committees set a course that requires boats to sail two or more laps, with the added requirement that they cross the finishing line at the end of each lap. This course is frequently used for informal local races. Technically speaking, under the current definition, the boats “finish” at the end of the first lap, but obviously that is not what is intended when such a course is used. The same issue can arise when other types of courses are used. As Q&A E7 (Q&A 2009-026) shows, there are situations when a boat inadvertently crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark well before she has finished sailing the course. The addition of “continues to sail the course” to the second sentence proposed in Proposal 3 makes it clear that, if such a boat continues to sail the course after crossing the line, she has not finished.”
Anyone participate in track in high school or college? The 880 is just over two times around a 400 track, when did you finish?
Any Indy car or NASCAR fans out there? The competitors pass through the start/finish many times, but when do they finish? The last lap. Speed skating, cross country skiing and I expect many more sports round a course multiple times but only finish at the end of the last lap.
I just wonder why in sailboat racing we need to be different? Oh, look at me, I'm rambling again. Catch you later on down the trail.
Jerry, Yellow is on the second leg when she touches P, does she break a rule?
No. P does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course on which she is sailing.
Green is on the third leg and passing though the "counting gate" or "safety gate" or just the gate. Does she finish and continue to sail the course?
It is not possible to 'finish and continue to sail the course. If a boat crosses the finishing line from the course side and continues to sail the course she has not finished.
John A "It is not possible to 'finish and continue to sail the course. If a boat crosses the finishing line from the course side and continues to sail the course she has not finished."
Yes, I agree John. I had in my mind when she crossed the finish line from the course side she finished. At that point there is not enough information to make that determination. The three conditions must first be tested to get to finished.
In the case where there are multiple loops and someone is crossing the Finish during one or more of those loops, one has not Sailed The Course and then Finished. If the RC wishes to Shorten Course in either case, they are free to do so in accordance with the Rules.
EG: The course requires four laps around a loop and each lap includes the Finish Line. Until the final lap, or the RC shortens the course, a Yacht has not Finished the race despite transiting the Finish Line.
Based upon def: finish, as soon as you determine the condition of your question is satisfied .. "and then continues to sail the course?" ... that by definition makes the boat's finish-line crossing NOT a finish
We also have Case 148 (generated from a thread on RRoS.org) which discusses "when" a boat is considered to have continued to sail the course.
We did this all the time in the Magothy River north of Annapolis. After starting all the fleets, the RC would often flop to the other side of the starting-pin so it can be rounded to port or finished using the same approach. Often we would setup a "hopeful" # of loops ... but shorten by removing a last lap.
You techhnically finish on each lap but continue to sail the course.
I think you meant to ask ..:
Course : Start - 1 - 2s/2p - Finish - 2 Laos
For the definition, consider a boat being unclear whether they have sailed the correct number of laps. They complete the race, cross the line, but being uncertain as to whether or not they have completed the race, sail another lap.
The case requires the PC to make a dubious value judgement, including, to my mind, a judgement by the PC about what the crew were thinking rather than actual verifiable facts. Its not immediately apparent to me why its desirable for the boat that stops for a few seconds to discuss whether they have completed the race to be counted as having finished, and thus DSQ, and the boat that keeps moving while having the same discussion to be counted as not finished and able to complete the course and be placed.
On a multi-lap course, why is a boat not considered finished if, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finish line from the course side before completing all required laps?
The finish line is defined in the sailing instructions as a line between two finish marks. What rule or definition says that the finish line is at the end of the last leg of a course"?
This exception was introduced to enable the running of multi-lap races. Without it, such formats wouldn't be possible.
C'mon Mark, give us a break.
A leg is the portion of a course between 2 consecutive marks n'est-ce pas?
So in the gold cup type course you've described, the last leg of the course is 2s/2p - Finish.
If the sailor cleared the finish line and marks after finishing, then he was no longer racing. The only way to get back to racing is through a start sequence. The sailor would need to be careful about sailing among boats still racing or risk breaking RRS 23.1. So, if he cleared the line he was done racing, score him the first time he crossed the finish line. If he didn't clear the line and marks, he was still racing, score the second time he crossed the finish line.
The course diagram and course legend. See the example below for Course 1. Yellow is on the second leg when she touches P, does she break a rule?
Green is on the third leg and passing though the "counting gate" or "safety gate" or just the gate. Does she finish and continue to sail the course?
History – The clause, (c) continues to sail the course, was added to the definition of Finish in the 2013-2016 RRS. Submission 251-11 contains the following:
“Many race committees set a course that requires boats to sail two or more laps, with the added requirement that they cross the finishing line at the end of each lap. This course is frequently used for informal local races. Technically speaking, under the current
definition, the boats “finish” at the end of the first lap, but obviously that is not what is intended when such a course is used. The same issue can arise when other types of courses are used. As Q&A E7 (Q&A 2009-026) shows, there are situations when a boat
inadvertently crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark well before she has finished sailing the course. The addition of “continues to sail the course” to the second sentence proposed in Proposal 3 makes it clear that, if such a boat continues to sail the course after crossing the line, she has not finished.”
Any Indy car or NASCAR fans out there? The competitors pass through the start/finish many times, but when do they finish? The last lap. Speed skating, cross country skiing and I expect many more sports round a course multiple times but only finish at the end of the last lap.
I just wonder why in sailboat racing we need to be different? Oh, look at me, I'm rambling again. Catch you later on down the trail.
No. P does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course on which she is sailing.
It is not possible to 'finish and continue to sail the course. If a boat crosses the finishing line from the course side and continues to sail the course she has not finished.
Yes, I agree John. I had in my mind when she crossed the finish line from the course side she finished. At that point there is not enough information to make that determination. The three conditions must first be tested to get to finished.
Thanks