Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

OCS incident

Jan Winkler
Nationality: Croatia
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
Hello all,
Here is another interesting scenario.

Feel free to discuss it, find the applicable rules-conclusions-decisions.

Cheers.
.................................................................................................................
Facts found:
  • following the preparatory signal P of fleet race nr. 1, two 470 (green and blue) were sailing near the starting line,
  • wind speed was 12 knots, there was a chop of 0.5m,
  • 10 seconds before the starting signal, blue was on port tack, beam reaching, close to the pin end starting mark which she left on port and yellow green was on starboard tack, beam reaching, 2 boat lengths above the RC boat; position 1,
  • at the moment of the starting signal yellow green on starboard was 2 boat lengths OCS while blue on port was sailing parallel course to the starting line; position 2,
  • following the starting signal X flag was displayed on the RC boat with the sound signal
  • immediately after the starting signal green bore away on a broad reaching course aiming astern of blue who was 1.5-2 boat lengths away; position 3,
  • after green bore away, blue luffed to a close hauled course and crossed the starting line, on a converging course with green,
  • green promptly bore away on a run but there was a contact between blue's bow and green's starboard aft quarter,
  • there was no damage or injury,
  • both boats protested

OCS incident.jpeg 46.3 KB
Created: 20-Apr-04 13:10

Comments

Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
2

Position 3 - Green becomes the give-way boat when she turns towards the pre-start side of the starting line (RRS 22.1)
Position 4 - By altering course, Blue is subject to RRS 16.1; Green immediately responds and is unable to keep clear.

Blue did not give Green room to keep clear, breaking RRS 16.1
Contact, thus RRS 14 was broken. However, no damage or injury; Green was entitled to room and is exonerated by 14(b).
  
DSQ Blue.

Created: 20-Apr-04 14:17
Louis Mayo
Nationality: New Zealand
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
0
As an alternative, it could be argued that Blue's alteration of course was an attempt to avoid contact with Green. In which case Green broke RRS 22.1 and is not exonerated by RRS 21. However, Blue is still subject to RRS 24.2. It was reasonably possible for her not to interfere with Green and by reaching along underneath the starting line, she was not sailing her proper course. 
Created: 20-Apr-04 14:35
Theodor Beier
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
1
I need more facts, which would be obtained in a hearing before making a decision: (1) Why did blue sail two BL after the starting signal before assuming a PC?  (2) Were there other boats present that affected the choice of courses of both blue and green; especially blue?  (3) How did green expect to comply with RRS 22.1 with her choice of course, bearing away across the center of the start line; especially in the presence of other boats?  I would except that at a start there would be other boats that would affect the courses of both blue and green.

Created: 20-Apr-04 15:35
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Louis, based on the detailed account in FF's #6, #7, #8 [counting bullets] and the drawing at position-3, that alternate would be a hard decision to come to IMO.
Created: 20-Apr-04 16:10
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
What happened to yellow? "at the moment of the starting signal yellow on starboard was 2 boat lengths OCS..."



Created: 20-Apr-04 16:11
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
24.2 Interfering w boat returning to start: Does not apply after starting signal.
Thus, P's luff to closehauled is a proper course and allowed.

22.1 boat returning to start shall keep clear.
Sect A & 15 & 16 do not apply.
Thus P has ROOM.
DSQ S.

21 Exoneration, even if violate A, 15, or 16.
Thus, even if P's luff were covered only by acquiring ROW by the starting signal, P would be exonerated.
Ditto P's change of course.
Exonerate P.

14 Avoiding contact (no damage, no injury)
At position 3, P might still expect S to steer clear.
S fails to keep clear and makes contact.
DSQ S.
P with ROW is exonerated.

Created: 20-Apr-04 16:21
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Philip  ... might want to check the section below ...

22.1 boat returning to start shall keep clear.
Sect A & 15 & 16 do not apply.
Thus P has ROOM.
DSQ S.
Created: 20-Apr-04 16:34
Jan Winkler
Nationality: Croatia
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
0
Mark Townsend

What happened to yellow? "at the moment of the starting signal yellow on starboard was 2 boat lengths OCS..."


Thank you Mark for noticing...an obvious errow on my part, sry...
I corrected the post...
Created: 20-Apr-04 16:39
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
There appear to be a few choices.

  1. While she was sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal, Green failed to keep clear of Blue, and broke RRS 22.1.
  2. Blue, the right-of-way boat, changed her course and failed to give Green room to keep clear and broke RRS 16.1
  3. Blue, who was not sailing her proper course, interfered with Green who was sailing to the pre-start side of the starting line, and broke RRS 24.2.

To conclude that Blue broke either RRS 16.1 or RRS 24.2 you would need to find that Green was keeping clear at position 3. From the facts we have she is bearing away onto a collision course with Blue. If Blue takes no action Green will hit her amidships.

FACTS
  • Between position 2 and position 3 Green starts sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line.
  • At position 3, Green is bearing away and is on a collision course with Blue. 
  • Between position 3 and 4 Blue luffs to avoid contact with Green but is unable to do so.

CONCLUSION
  1. While she was sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal, Green failed to keep clear of Blue, and broke RRS 22.1.

DECISION
DSQ Green.
Created: 20-Apr-04 17:10
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark .. I get your drift (and Louis') .. but the OP was very specific in the FF's (which were labeled as such in the OP).  You've changed the FF's.

  • immediately after the starting signal green bore away on a broad reaching course aiming astern of blue who was 1.5-2 boat lengths away; position 3,
  • after green bore away, blue luffed to a close hauled course and crossed the starting line, on a converging course with green,
  • green promptly bore away on a run but there was a contact between blue's bow and green's starboard aft quarter,
Created: 20-Apr-04 17:47
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
 At position 3 the diagram doesn't match the facts.

image.png 44.1 KB



Created: 20-Apr-04 18:10
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark .. that's a little thin IMO. Green is aiming to pass astern of Blue by a country mile at #3 (just progress the boats forward 1-1/2 BL's).  I think it's pretty clear that's what Jan meant in that FF.
Created: 20-Apr-04 20:20
Geoff Chambers
Nationality: Australia
0
i prior to start rule 10 applies and Blue being on P must keep clear which makes Green on S ROW
ii at start green is OCS and 22.1 applies once she is sailing toward the pre-start side of the line which she is at 3, Green must keep clear which makes blue ROW
iii Blue has acquired ROW due to the action of Green sailing a course from OCS to pre-start side of line. Note this 'action' is enduring.
iv Blue not required to initially give room under 15 as she has acquired RoW due to action of Green.
v Blue as ROW is governed by 16.1 if as RoW boat she makes a change in course, however,
iii blue may INTERFERE with green provided she is sailing proper course 24.2, which after the start signal she is by luffing to close hauled
iv green is required to keep clear of Blues course change up to close hauled which is Blue’s proper course
v greens options for keeping clear were to bear away/ jibe, or to luff and pass to windward of blue.
vi the reasonable interpretation of INTERFERE must include changing course otherwise it adds nothing to the rules
Therefor;
Blue’s change of course up to and including close hauled was her proper course at all times.
Though governed by 15 to make a course change to allow green to keep clear her obligation is reduced if not entirely removed by 24.2 which allows her to INTERFERE which can have no other meaning than to mean change course to impose an immediate obligation on the other boat
Green could have kept clear by luffing and passing to windward (as is entirely usual in 'hunting' scenarios) but for her own advantage in wanting to return to the pre-start elected instead to bear away and try to keep clear with minimal inconvenience to her need to return to pre-start side but failed to keep clear.
Green DsQ
Blue exonerated for minor contact with no damage.

Created: 20-Apr-04 22:51
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
3
From the presented FF, that I put them into TSS, this is what I came up with.

FF:  … at the moment of the starting signal  green on starboard was 2 boat lengths OCS while blue on port was sailing parallel course to the starting line; position 2,

and FF: …immediately after the starting signal Green bore away on a broad reaching course aiming astern of Blue who was 1.5-2 boat lengths away; position 3.

 
image.png 70.8 KB
 

I trust we can agree that at position 3, Blue’s PC was to Start. 

 
image.png 69.1 KB


 


Blue, who was not sailing her proper course, interfered with Green, who was complying with rule 29.1, breaking rule 24.2. In addition, although it was reasonably possible for her to do it, Blue did not avoid contact with Green, thus breaking rule 14.


DSQ Blue (possibly DNE).


Kim

Created: 20-Apr-04 23:04
Matthew Blake
Nationality: United States of America
0
Is it possible that:
Blue could (should) have luffed at position 2.25 and started cleanly.  But, seeing Green still reaching on STBD (still closer to the wind than a beam reach), decided to sail 5-10 seconds further on port reach to pass safely around Green's stern.  (Otherwise, why did Blue sail 10 seconds further down the line after the start.)
Green, oblivious to Blue's presence and ignoring Green's own burden (by 22.1) to stay clear of a properly starting boat, just lazily bore away, and thus prevented Blue from executing her planned maneuver to stay clear.
Blue then luffed as the only reasonable maneuver she thought she had.
Green should have either continued on a STBD reach after position 2 so that Blue's planned course would have remained clear of Green, or Green should have turned downwind much, much faster, and even gybed, to remain clear of Blue.

Green DSQ.

... just a thought.

Created: 20-Apr-05 00:25
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
We have two 470's in 12 knots of breeze. Their VMG downwind is 8 knots, that is 4m per second. In  the 10 seconds between position 1 and position 2 they have closed by 80m and continue to close at 16 knots. At which point Green bears away towards me and I don't have "a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision."

When Green bears away they are two boat lengths above the line and 2 seconds from a collision with Blue.
Created: 20-Apr-05 00:42
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
1. A diagram agreed upon by all parties is a fact found, and far more reliable than a narrative based on each party's fictitious description of boat lengths here and there or of elapsed time.
2. The RRS go to great lengths (even beyond the my list, above) to discourage and punish boats being on the course side of the line at the starting signal.
3. It is a fallacy for judges to observe the numbered sequence of movements on the diagram and expect that one boat keeps instantaneous track of another boat's changes. Skippers have other things to do between checks upon the other. By rules, the onus falls greater on the OCS boat (or any give-way boat) to monitor the other and keep clear.
Created: 20-Apr-05 00:52
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Kim .. nicely done!
Created: 20-Apr-05 01:56
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Mark,
You assumed that both boats are running at those speeds. Not necessarily. The diagram, part of FF, may have a different (closing) speeds depicted.
Maybe we can ask: If Blue had such apprehension of collision, why did she not keep sailing straight? Or maybe bore off?
Turning toward a boat at 16 knots closing speed, as you say, is hardly the best recipe to lessen apprehension. 
Kim

Created: 20-Apr-05 05:29
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Kim, re your conclusion wording below .. did you mean 22.1? (emphasis added)

Blue, who was not sailing her proper course, interfered with Green, who was complying with rule 29.1, breaking rule 24.2. In addition, although it was reasonably possible for her to do it, Blue did not avoid contact with Green, thus breaking rule 14.

Technically, rule 29.1 does not put any requirements on a boat, but puts requirements on the RC based upon the position of a boat.  The only "shall" in 29.1 is on the RC.

So .. maybe this instead? .. [pulling the "subject to rule 22.1" language from 24.2]

Blue, who was not sailing her proper course, interfered with Green, who was complying with rule 29.1 [subject to rule 22.1], breaking rule 24.2. In addition, although it was reasonably possible for her to do it, Blue did not avoid contact with Green, thus breaking rule 14.
Created: 20-Apr-05 12:15
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
It seems to me that both boats are at fault so I feel like a satisfying result would toss them both.

Given, as Mark noted, a fast closing speed I can see why B might not want to head up and start at position 2 but rather continue parallel to the line for a couple of boat lengths to pass astern of G. But I think Kim is correct that in the absence of G, heading up at the starting signal (at 2) was B's proper course and continuing to parallel the line, although safer, was not.

If both boats hold their courses at 3, there's no problem. B initiated the problem by heading up between 3 and 4. If G had maintained her course then or perhaps headed up, B presumably would not have headed up to a collision course but would have made a course to pass port-to-port with G. By continuing to bear away between 3 & 4, G closed out that option. They were likely too close and too fast at that point for B to avoid contact by luffing HTW or tacking.

So how about this:

G while returning to the pre-start side of the line to start failed to keep clear of B as required by RRS 22.1. G also broke RRS 14 and, since RRS 16 was off, was not entitled to room to keep clear and is not exonerated. G is DSQ.

B, after the starting signal and while not sailing her proper course, interfered with G when it was reasonably possible not to do so breaking RRS 24.2. B also broke RRS 14 but was ROW boat and is exonerated for breaking 14. B is DSQ.
Created: 20-Apr-05 16:24
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
If Green continues to hold her course at position 3 or even luffs slightly she will pass to windward of Blue. When Blue the right-of-way boat changes course after position 3, she gives Green room to keep clear if she continues to pass her to windward, It is Green's action of promptly bearing away in front of Blue that causes the collision. Green choose not to take the "up option" and instead bore away in front of Blue. See diagram.

image.png 41.6 KB



CONCLUSION
  1. While she was sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal, Green failed to keep clear of Blue, and broke RRS 22.1.

DECISION
DSQ Green.
Created: 20-Apr-05 17:08
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
0
Just a question. What happened to rule 15? When green bears away 15 kicks in, long before 16. And blue aquires ROW because of other boats actions.
Rule 15 does not disappear anywhere.
Created: 20-Apr-05 18:29
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
Blue becomes the right-of-way boat when Green starts sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal (RRS 22.1). As Blue acquired the right of way because of Green’s actions RRS 15 does not apply.

15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY
When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.
Created: 20-Apr-05 18:36
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Mark, I think I agree with your conclusion. 

I could posit that, again due to the high closing speed, G may have felt that she was committed to the port turn and it was too late to reverse. Which might not make her right but might explain her action. 
Created: 20-Apr-05 19:11
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
My major issue with DSQ Blue is that we seem to have turned Green into the right-of-way boat, she is not. Blue is the right of way boat under RRS 22.1. Any change of course by Blue is limited by RRS 16, Blue can change course, she just has to give Green room to keep clear.

Narrative
 
When Blue the right-of-way boat changes course after position 3, RRS 16.1 requires that she give Green room to keep clear. Green has that room if she holds her course or luffs slightly, she will pass to windward of Blue (Light Green Boat #4). Green choose not to pass to windward of Blue and instead bore away in front of Blue. Green's action of promptly bearing away in front of Blue causes the collision.
 
When a boat with right of way is required to give another boat room to keep clear, right of way does not transfer to the boat entitled to that room. Rule 16 requires that when a right-of-way boat changes course, she gives the other boat room to keep clear.
 
CONCLUSION
1. Blue, the right-of-way boat, changed course and gave Green room to keep clear, and did not break RRS 16.1.
2. While she was sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal, Green failed to keep clear of Blue, and broke RRS 22.1.
 
DECISION
DSQ Green.

image.png 45 KB


Created: 20-Apr-05 19:24
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Angelo,
I like the change.
Thanks,
Kim
Created: 20-Apr-05 20:39
Geoff Chambers
Nationality: Australia
0
a few things;
i. the FF do not say Blue was slow to come to close hauled, merely that green bore away immediately at the start signal and blue then  luffed to close hauled. Any suggestion blue's coming to close hauled was somehow delayed is not consistent with FF. Naturally if she is close to the start line she will come up after the gun so as to not break the start. Nothing untoward about that. Any suggestion she was not sailing her proper course is wrong and in any event she is not required to sail her proper course. Kim your second diagram would appear to have blue breaking the start.
ii. there are three course changes by the boats; green bears away, blue luffs to close hauled, green bears away further. The collision occurred after green bore away a second time and that was the course change that ultimately caused the collision that occurred. Being bound by 22.1 green failed to keep clear; unless blue's course change failed to give green room to keep clear under 16.1 but no such fact was found.
iii we have all been speculating on this point yet really it is a question of fact that must be determined by the PC. The PC have not found that blue's course change by luffing to close hauled failed to give green room to keep clear. This is not even a fact that must be determined one way or the other - rather if it is not found to have been the case, then by the facts, it was not the case. We cannot disqualify blue for having failed to give room when it has not been found that she failed to give room. We are all inventing in our own mind a a further fact (one way or the other) when we are told by the facts that that fact was not found, ie it doesn't exist, ie it is not the fact that blue failed to give room.
iv it is not our place to consider the PC has erred by not expressing one way or the other whether Blue failed to give room. We have the facts before us and they do not include that blue failed to give room. What we do know is Green was bound by 22.1 and a collission occurred between it and another boat that had started correctly and had come to close hauled which was her proper course. We can speculate all we want about whether green could have avoided a collision by bearing away harder or by luffing to windward of blue but we don't need to and in proper discharge of our role in applying rules to FF we should not so speculate on that any more than we should speculate whether blue gave green room to keep clear. These are facts to be found if the PC considers them to be relevent. 
v. On the FF green was subject to 22.1 and collided with blue while attempting to return to pre-start. 

Created: 20-Apr-05 20:49
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Mark, Tim,

Why are you both omitting the Blue’s proper course (PC) component after the Start signal at Pos. 2?

At that time, there were minimum of 5 BTL (3 btl horizontally and 2 btl vertically) separation btw the boats. Had Blue started properly at the Start signal and Green continued to turn down, as she was doing right after the starting signal, the boats would have not been close to each other. 

Blue, by choosing to not to sail her PC turned on rule 24.2. Blue cannot claim that she was sailing her PC at any position after position 2.

I wonder, was Blue thinking that if she started when required and Green kept sailing in a straight line as the RoW boat (on S), Blue would have been required to keep clear.

Kim  

Created: 20-Apr-05 21:29
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Geoff,

No one is suggesting that Blue becomes OCS (break the start, as you call it). However, it is clear from the diagram that Blue continues to sail in a straight line after the Start signal. Agree, Blue is not required to sail her PC, but by not doing so invites rule 24.2 into the game and breaks it. 
In fact, I think rule 24 is partly a safety rule giving a degree of protection to boats included in rule 22 that these boat(s) can reasonably rely on. 
Without that, you can paint the picture here.

i.                     Kim your second diagram would appear to have blue breaking the start.

No such thing. If you look at it carefully, at the signal, Blue is still parallel to the line:
image.png 4.79 KB

Kim



Created: 20-Apr-05 22:24
Matthew Blake
Nationality: United States of America
0
I wonder, was Blue thinking that if she started when required and Green kept sailing in a straight line as the RoW boat (on S), Blue would have been required to keep clear.

I would think that the answer to that question is relevant.  The protest committee should have asked about that, no?

I lean to DSQ-ing Green, but see the argument against Blue, as well.  Seems like more info is needed to get it right.
Created: 20-Apr-05 22:27
Theodor Beier
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Agree with Matthew, as I commented way back at the beginning of this string.  Where were the other boats?  Were some stbd tackers preventing Blue from a proper course at the gun?  Were there starting boats blocking green's view of blue?  The facts found, as presented, are insufficient/incomplete.
Created: 20-Apr-05 23:44
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
At the moment contact occurs between Green and Blue, Blue is sailing her proper course, starboard close-hauled.
 
There are three course changes, two by Green and only one by Blue; 1) Green bears away, 2) Blue luffs to close hauled, 3) Green bears away to a run. 
 
Fact 6 - Immediately after the starting signal Green bore away on a broad reaching course aiming astern of Blue who was 1.5-2 boat lengths away; position 3. 
 
When Green bears away, Blue becomes the right of way boat under RRS 22.1, until that time she was required to keep clear under RRS 10, which she did.  
 
Fact 7 - After Green bore away, Blue luffed to a close hauled course and crossed the starting line, on a converging course with Green.
 
Until the starting gun sounds at position 2 Blue has no proper course. Her proper course from that moment is to luff to a close hauled course, which she does. See fact 7. Blue is now on a converging course with Green. There is room for Green to keep clear when Blue luffs so Blue did not break RRS 16.1.
 
Fact 8 - Green promptly bore away on a run but there was a contact between Blue's bow and Green's starboard aft quarter.
 
Green is required to keep clear and Blue must give her the room to keep clear.  Green decides to bear away in front of Blue, a right-of-way boat.  
 
Blue has no proper course until the starting gun. She is then required to keep clear of Green a starboard tack right-of-way boat. After Green bore away, Blue luffed to a close hauled course. Green then bore away to a run and collided with Blue.
  
If you look at this positions of the boats at position 3 ½ (below), after Blue luffs, but before Green bore away. At this time Green's is required to keep clear. She can best do this by luffing.


image.png 36.5 KB
Created: 20-Apr-05 23:58
Geoff Chambers
Nationality: Australia
0
Accepting then that Blue at 3 has delayed luffing to close hauled and is therefor not sailing her proper course, is she thereby "interfering" with Greens most expedite option for returning to pre-start side?   FF indicate immediately at the signal, green bore away to pass astern of blue. In the absence of Blue, Green would be expected to have sailed deeper to get back asap. Blue is therefor in Green's way but by not sailing her proper course is she therefor 'interfering'. It is entirely possible to 'interfere' while both giving room and keeping clear such as reaching overlapped to leeward of a boat wanting to bear away for any reason. This would seem a harsh reversal of 22.1 and what would be blue's option other than to 'vaporise/disappear' or assume a proper course, which she did. Green did not protest at 3 and presumably is not alleging Blue broke 24.2 at 3. 

If we decide Blue's luff to close hauled did not give room to green, then we appear to be putting Blue in a damned if you do damned if you don't predicament - if she continues reaching or even luffs but not all the way to close hauled such that Green has to avoid her, Blue breaks 24.2, but if she luffs to proper course she breaks 16.1. And all this for no other reason than Green is OCS and trying to return in the way of boats trying to start.

It might be fair to cut Blue some slack in not immediately coming to close hauled on the signal given Green is in the position she is in. If Green had continued reaching after the signal she would still be a RoW boat to Blue rule 10. Blue only becomes RoW over Green once Green is sailing back toward the line. Therefore prior to 3, Blue has to plan to keep clear of Green after the start and has no certainty that Green will bear away at 3. Blue's best course is therefore to plan to cross astern of Green. Only once Green bears away does Blue have rights under 22.1 whilst also becoming burdoned by 24.2 and 16.1.

If Blue's luff to close hauled did not leave room for Green to keep clear then Blue breaks 16.1, but the FF did not include that Blue's luff did not leave room for Green to keep clear, only that Green responded and a collision resulted.

Blue can only be disqualified 16.1 if she failed to give room and the facts have not found that to be the case.

Silence in the facts should not be taken to be a deficiency. It is what it is. No fact that Blue failed to give room was found.

Green was OCS and subject to 22.1 and failed to keep clear of Blue.






Created: 20-Apr-06 00:33
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
0
"Blue becomes the right-of-way boat when Green starts sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal (RRS 22.1).
As Blue acquired the right of way because of Green’s actions RRS 15 does not apply."

Back with rule 15, I'll might disagree a bit.
Part B rules are very powerful rules and hard to turn off and therefore I slightly disagree about "does not apply".
Which rule turns 15 off? Rule 15 says "When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear,"
but then there is a second part  ...
"unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions"   
which very much applies.
Example MR call B4.


Created: 20-Apr-06 05:47
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark, re: "At the moment contact occurs between Green and Blue, Blue is sailing her proper course, starboard close-hauled."

Are we to take that narrow of a time-slice-view applying rule 24.2? ... that the 'proper-course test' of the rule is ONLY applied at the moment the boats meet ?  I can't get my head around the idea that a boat can clearly sail off their proper course and then interfere with a boat as long as they position their boat such that she can adopt the heading of her proper course at the moment of the interference.

Though Case 126 addresses the 'sailing on another leg' aspect of rule 24.2, I think the case is instructive in the sense that it opens up 'the state of mind' of the apparent interfering-boat (which I found fascinating because I've kept as a rule-of-thumb that the state of mind of the competitor only comes into play in rule 2 and 69).

In each of the Q&A's of that case, the application of rule 24.2 hinges on the knowledge of the competitor, whether or not they knew they were sailing on a different leg.  Since, " .. ,sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1."  is one one phrase set-off by a comma, should both of those conditions have the same application standard?

I think this goes to the heart of Kim's approach.  Blue should have headed to her proper-course at #2.  Without good reason to the contrary (a question others have raised), Blue holds her course away from her proper course between #2-#3 .. putting herself in a position such that when she adopts her proper-course she interferes with a boat subject to rule 24.2.  That's kosher?

If we hold that 24.2's proper-course exception is only tested at the moment of interference, then would we say below, 2 boats on a beat to windward, that Blue does not break rule 24.2 relative to Yellow since Blue adopts her proper course at #5?

image.png 58.7 KB
Created: 20-Apr-06 14:16
Matthew Blake
Nationality: United States of America
0
I keep putting myself in the position of Blue's helmsman at position 3.  Continue straight, or head up?  What would anyone decide to do there?

If you (as Blue's helm) think Green will continue to turn (as she did), you would head up hard, as she (Blue) did.  If Blue did not head up at position 3, there is a nearly certain, very damaging collision waiting to occur in another boat length, or so.

If you think Green is going to steady her course and pass astern (of you, in Blue), you would continue straight reaching parallel to the line.  No one paying attention would have headed up at position 3 into an oncoming Green boat that was steering to pass astern of you.

So, based on that assumption, I would exonerate Blue and disqualify Green.  Blue did what she had to do to avoid serious collision.  Green was obliged to return to the line and avoid others while doing so.  Green should have made it much clearer that she was going to pass astern of Blue, if that was truly her intent.  Even at position 3, it appears Green could have luffed and passed to windward of Blue.

There are many possible, valid reasons why Blue did not (or could not) head up at position 2.  She travelled only 1.5 - 2 boat lengths further along the line before heading up - just a few seconds of time passed.  Or is this a match race, and Blue is "hunting" Green ;-) (FF say fleet race!)?

Created: 20-Apr-06 15:41
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
There are no facts found that support that Blue deviated from her proper course with the purpose of interfering with Green. Case 126 requires some intent on the part of the interfering boat to find they broke RRS 24.2. Case 126 has a fact in Question 3 “L deviated from her proper course to the offset mark in order to luff X.." What facts found support Blue deviating from her proper course to intentionally interfere with Green?

At position 2, RRS 10 requires Blue a port tack boat to keep clear of Green a starboard tack boat. Blue’s obligation is to keep clear and Green has to give her room to do so. Blue by sailing a parallel course to the starting line is complying with her obligation to keep clear of Green. RRS 24.2 does not apply as Green is not yet returning to start..
 
At position 3, when Green starts sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal, Blue becomes the right-of-way boat, because Blue acquires right of way because of the Green's actions, bearing away towards the pre-start side of the starting line, RRS 15 does not apply. RRS 24.2 now applies as Green is now returning to start.

Blue's proper course at that moment is to luff to a close-hauled course, which she does between position 3 and 4. Green’s obligation is to keep clear and Blue has to give her room to do so.
 
When a boat with right of way is required to give another boat room to keep clear, right of way does not transfer to the boat entitled to that room. RRS 16 requires that when a right-of-way boat changes course, she gives the other boat room to keep clear.

A right-of-way boat may change course in such a way that a keep-clear boat is newly obliged to take action to keep clear, until a further alteration of course would deprive the keep-clear boat of room to do so.
 
RRS 16.1 does not restrict the right-of-way boat from altering course in the close proximity of a give way boat. The further apart the boats are when a course alteration is made, the more likely it is that the give way can keep clear, so that RRS 16.1 is less likely to be broken.

When Blue luffs to a close-hauled course was there room for Green, the keep clear boat, to take avoiding action if she acted promptly, or was a collision inevitable? There are no facts found that says a collision was inevitable, so it seems reasonable to assume that a collision was not inevitable.

Green then choose to bear away and cross Blue's path, after which a collision occurred. When Green bore away was it to avoid an impending collision, would luffing have been a better choice, or did Green in her desire to restart, quickly bear away and try to cross Blue's bow? Again there are no facts that support an impending collision, so it seems reasonable to assume that a collision was not inevitable.

The geometry would seem to indicate that had Green luffed she would have passed safely to windward. Therefore, it is Green's final alteration of course to bear away and try to cross Blue's bow that makes the collision inevitable.

In the diagram below, I have included a 5th position, which is between the original position 3 and position 4. This is after Blue luffs to a close-hauled course, but before Green bore away to a run.


image.png 45.4 KB


Created: 20-Apr-06 18:17
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark, re: "There are no facts found that support that Blue deviated from her proper course with the purpose of interfering with Green."

OK .. there are 2 parts there in your statement (1) "deviation" and (2) "purpose".  As far as (1), do you agree that Blue, by not coming to close-hauled at her starting signal at 2 (since there are also no facts that she delayed to avoid other boats), that Blue deviates from her proper course at #2?  You'd agree that a course-change is not required to deviate from proper course, right?

If we agree on (1), then we are on to "purpose".  I'm being sincere in my questions here .. as I've never had this issue arise in a hearing I was involved in.

How would we ever determine a fact of 'purpose of interfering' without basically an admission of intent during the hearing?  As a member of a panel, I would have thought to proceed with the approach to discover facts that could explain the deviation in this circumstance and absent any other facts/explanation, end up at 'if it waddles when it walks, quacks, lays eggs and has feathers and bill, it's a duck'.

How would you approach this in a hearing and come to a conclusion of interference without an admission?

Thanks .. Ang

Created: 20-Apr-06 21:51
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
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  • International Judge
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The first problem is I don't agree that Blue has a proper course requirement immediately after position 2. What rule are you saying requires Blue to sail a proper course?
   
Rule 10 applies. Blue a port tack boat shall keep clear of Green a starboard tack boat. There is no mention of proper course in rule 10.

Blue by sailing a parallel course to the starting line is complying with her obligation to keep clear of Green under rule 10.
Created: 20-Apr-06 22:16
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark, re: " I don't agree that Blue has a proper course requirement immediately after position 2."

I too agree that Blue does not have "a proper course requirement immediately after position 2."

Seems we are considering rule 24.2.  Rule 24.2 does not require a boat to sail a proper course.  How I read it, rule 24.2 uses proper course as a test (not a requirement) as to whether or not a boat shall be penalized for interfering with another boat (even if it was reasonably possible for her not to interfere).    Interfere with another boat subject to rule 22.1, even if it was reasonably possible for you not to? ... and you are sailing your proper course getting to that position? .. no penalty.

Seems to me 24.2 is a backwards progression test.  You start with the alleged interference of a rule 24.2 applicable boat.  Next, you find facts of how the alleged interferer got there.  If they they deviated from their proper course to be in a position to interfere, then it seems the 24.2 proper course exemption is not available to them.
Created: 20-Apr-06 22:33
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
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EDITED UPON CLOSER READING OF MARK'S POINT

I believe that B's proper course at the starting signal is to start [but also to avoid ROW boats including G]. So if B continues to sail parallel and below the line after the starting signal (position 2), she is not sailing her proper course [except to the extent that she does so to keep clear of G, or until G turns below parallel to the line and B gains ROW] until she does come to a close-hauled course. I tend to agree with Mark that by the time the incident occurred B was sailing her proper course. B was not required to sail her proper course, but whether she was or was not impacts her obligation under 24.2.

I might also argue that B didn't interfere with G, as G had plenty of options for keeping clear and avoiding interference from B while returning to the start line. Maintaining the course she was sailing at position 3 or coming up slightly would have been options. Continuing to bear away was her worst option but unfortunately the one she chose.

I agree that "purpose" doesn't have any applicability to 24.2, or really any other rule except perhaps 2 or 69. If a boat breaks a rule it doesn't matter if she did it on purpose or not. But I kind of grant that 24.2 implies purpose, since breaking it requires that the boat has deviated from her proper course which she would only do if she had some reason other than finishing as soon as possible (such as interfering). If the boat taking a penalty or returning to start chooses to place herself on another boat's proper course line, that's her problem.
Created: 20-Apr-06 22:41
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
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If they deviated from their proper course for any reason and as a result they to be in a position to interferethen it seems the 24.2 proper course exemption is not available to them

Ang, I would adjust the wording slightly again to eliminate the implication of purpose.
Created: 20-Apr-06 22:47
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
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  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
Until Green starts sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal rule 22.1 and rule 24.2 do not apply. Blue remains the keep clear boat under rule 10. 

The facts indicate that at position 3, Green has born away and starts sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start after the starting signal, Blue becomes the right of way boat and no longer needs to keep clear of Green. Green’s obligation is to keep clear and Blue has to give her room to do so.

Blue's proper course at that moment is to luff to a close-hauled course, which she does between position 3 and 4.

Remember these are 470's in 12 knots of breeze. Assuming Blue has sheeted in, which the diagram indicates she has, they are only a few seconds between position 2 and 3.


Created: 20-Apr-06 23:05
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
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  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
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0
Tim read Case 126 Question 3 and see if you change your mind.
Facts for Question 3
The facts are the same as for Question 2, but with these differences: After L had sailed part of the way to the leeward mark, she realized that she had failed to round the offset mark and she turned back to correct her error. While L was beating to windward to the offset mark she encountered boat X. X had rounded the windward mark and the offset mark and was running towards the leeward mark on the same tack as L. L deviated from her proper course to the offset mark in order to luff X. X protested L alleging that L broke rule 24.2.

Created: 20-Apr-06 23:20
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
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There seem to be a lot of emphasis put on what Green was doing after position 2. Few thinks Green stopped turning toward the start line at some point only to resume her turn at some point later, creating the situation for herself. We do not know that. Only that at her boat pointed on course that projected behind Blue’s stern, few seconds after the signal at Pos 3. The diagram and real-life sailing suggest that Green kept turning toward the line, subjected to rule 22.1.

Ang touched on the following point in different way, but the question is basically the same:

Is there a protection built into rule 24.2 that the boat returning to start can count on? I believe that there is. The rule puts restriction of proper course for the boat that could, in absence of it, interfere with the boat returning to start.

In fact, I think rule 24 is partly a safety rule giving a degree of protection to boats included in rule 22 that these boat(s) can reasonably rely on. Without that, how do you determine when the proper course kicks in for the other boat? Consequence of not having a point in time/place would be mayhem.
 
As Mark said: Assuming Blue has sheeted in, which the diagram indicates she has, they are only a few seconds between position 2 and 3.
 
Those few seconds at the speeds Mark told us, made the difference here.
image.png 18.8 KB
Blue, not sailing her proper course, loses the exclusion in 24.2. 
 
Kim
 
 

Created: 20-Apr-07 05:38
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim re: "adjust the wording slightly again to eliminate the implication of purpose"

I agree, I was responding to Mark's use of "purpose" and then looking at the 'state-of-mind' application in the Case.  

I was thinking about that after I posted last .. that where I landed at the end was the right place (without or without "purpose" and a couple edits)

"Seems to me 24.2 is a backwards progression test.  You start with the alleged interference of a rule 24.2 applicable boat [and determine if interference occurred or not].  [If so] next, you find facts of how the alleged interferer got there.  If they deviated from their proper course to be in a position to interfere, then the 24.2 proper course exemption is not available to them.  If the exemption is not available to them, then move on to the "If reasonably possible" test.

This still leaves the timing of the proper course test (Tim, the reason I kept "in a position" in above).  Is it only at the point of interference or is it the path that got the boat in the position to interfere, regardless if the interfering boat can obtain a proper course immediately prior to the interference (as illustrated in my drawing above).
Created: 20-Apr-07 12:50
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
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Mark, I read the case and I still think that the purpose isn't really relevant. I think a boat is either on her proper course (and exempt from the requirement of 24.2) or she is not on her proper course and is subject to that restriction.

In Case 126, if the finding was that L deviated from her proper course to the offset mark due to an unintentional round up and as a result interfered with X who was on another leg of the course would L be subject to 24.2 or not?
Created: 20-Apr-07 13:19
Geoff Chambers
Nationality: Australia
1
There is a problem with the diagram included with FF in that position 4 for both yachts shows a simultaneous change of course from position 3 yet the text says after Blue luffed to close hauled "Green promptly bore away to a run". This describes a sequence of course changes but the diagram shows positions 4 as simultaneous course changes. If the text is the fact, then green's position 4 should be its position 5. And that in turn must shunt the positions of one or the other boat back a position number.

Put another way; if one was to look at the diagram without the text, they may well conclude blue luffed attempting to avoid green bearing away to a run, or at a minimum that both boats changed course simultaneously in which case it could not be deduced who was responding to who.

This is no small thing. The diagram cannot possibly represent the text of the FF yet when viewed along with the text it strongly gives an impression that blues last course change did not leave room for green to make a final course change. Th diagram is wrong and misleading.


image.png 908 KB
Created: 20-Apr-07 13:21
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
1
Rule 22.1 says, “A boat sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line or one of its extensions after her starting signal to start or to comply with rule 30.1 shall keep clear of a boat not doing so until she is completely on the pre-start side.”

Rule 24.2 says, “If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1. However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course.”

Rule 22.1 requires Green to keep clear of Blue. By turning towards Blue she is not. Blue only has to not interfere with Green if reasonably possible. Well because Green turned towards Blue it wasn’t reasonably possible. 

DSQ Green


Let’s change one fact, if instead of the start being at position 2 it is at position 3. 

By the rule 24.2 camp’s logic. If Blue luffs to a close hauled course Blue breaks rule 16.1. If Blue continues to sail parallel to the starting line they break 24.2. 

What about Green’s obligation under 22.1 to keep clear. 

When a boat with right of way is required to give another boat room to keep clear, right of way does not transfer to the boat entitled to that room. A right-of-way boat may change course in such a way that a keep-clear boat is newly obliged to take action to keep clear, until a further alteration of course would deprive the keep-clear boat of room to do so.
Created: 20-Apr-07 14:10
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
1
Rule 24.2 has two sentences. The second sentence says the rule (24.2) does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course after the starting signal. 


The first sentence says “If reasonable possible, ...” Is it reasonable that Blue, who has started correctly wants to luff to a close hauled course. Yes. Is it reasonable that Blue has to sail around Green who is returning to start. No.

Rule 24.2
If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1. 
However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course
Created: 20-Apr-07 14:56
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
As Geoff observed, there is a problem with the diagram included with FF in that position 4 for both boats shows a simultaneous change of course from position 3 yet the text says “after green bore away, blue luffed to a close hauled course” then the next fact found says “green promptly bore away on a run”. This describes a sequence of three course changes but the diagram shows greens course change between positions 2 and 3, and a simultaneous course change of Blue and Green positions 3 and 4. If the text is the fact, then green's position 4 should be its position 5. And that in turn must shunt the positions of one or the other boat back a position number. 
 
The following diagram would appear to better match the facts. Reviewing this diagram seems to indicate that it is Green's course change between new position 4 and 5 that results in the collision.
image.png 42.1 KB

Facts found: 
  1. following the preparatory signal P of fleet race nr. 1, two 470 (green and blue) were sailing near the starting line,
  2. wind speed was 12 knots, there was a chop of 0.5m,
  3. 10 seconds before the starting signal, blue was on port tack, beam reaching, close to the pin end starting mark which she left on port and  green was on starboard tack, beam reaching, 2 boat lengths above the RC boat; position 1,
  4. at the moment of the starting signal  green on starboard was 2 boat lengths OCS while blue on port was sailing parallel course to the starting line; position 2,
  5. following the starting signal X flag was displayed on the RC boat with the sound signal
  6. immediately after the starting signal green bore away on a broad reaching course aiming astern of blue who was 1.5-2 boat lengths away; position 3,
  7. after green bore away, blue luffed to a close hauled course and crossed the starting line, on a converging course with green,
  8. green promptly bore away on a run but there was a contact between blue's bow and green's starboard aft quarter,
  9. there was no damage or injury,
  10. both boats protested


Created: 20-Apr-07 15:49
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Gentlemen, those witnesses who have not already expired have retired to the bar.
Created: 20-Apr-07 16:43
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark .. I'd go along with your description below .. 
  • Rule 22.1 says, “A boat sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line or one of its extensions after her starting signal to start or to comply with rule 30.1 shall keep clear of a boat not doing so until she is completely on the pre-start side.”
  • Rule 24.2 says, “If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1. However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course.”

If Blue is a boat changing course to sail her proper course (coming HTW [close-hauled] at Blue's gun when Green is subject to 22.1 would be an example of that), I'd say 24.2 does not apply to Blue and it reverts to 16.1 vs 22.1 with 14.
Created: 20-Apr-07 17:06
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Mark,
Q;  When do you think the PC stared to apply to Blue? Important to determine if the exclusion in 24.2 can be applicable to her.

Kim

Created: 20-Apr-09 08:07
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
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0
Rule 24.2 was rewritten for the current 2017-2020 rule book based upon submissions, 174-14, 178-15 and 179-15. When trying to understand a rule, I read the rule, the applicable cases and the submissions that changed the rule. The submissions tend to explain the problem the rules writers were trying to fix.
 
In submission 178-15 they were trying to distinguish between a boat that acted to interfere with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1, as opposed to a boat that inadvertently and unknowingly interfered  with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1. The boat that acted to interfere rule 24.2, the boat that inadvertently and unknowingly interfered did not break rule 24.2.
 
In submission 179-15 they were trying to bring the team racing and fleet racing rules into alignment by incorporating submission 174-14 into the fleet racing rules. This means that Team racing call C3 is an interpretation of rule 24.2 and can be looked to for guidance as to how to interpret rule 24.2.

The reason given for submission 178-15 was: “Before the starting signal a right-of-way boat may inadvertently and unknowingly interfere with a boat taking a penalty as a result of an incident with a third boat. The proposed change clarifies that the rule is broken only when a boat clearly sails to prevent another boat, that is subject to rule 22.2, from completing a penalty”
 
The six reasons given for submission 179-15 were:
1. Team racing rules should only differ from the Fleet Racing rules if there is a specific reason related to Team racing to make a change
2. Submission 174-14 is accepted in 2014, changing rule D1.1(e) for Team racing
3. Submission 174-14 was based in Team Racing Call C3:
4. Question: After the start B is sailing on port tack from the course side of the starting line without having started. Boat Y has started correctly and bears away below her proper course onto a collision course with B. B protests. What should the call be?
5. Answer: Penalize Y. B and Y are not on the same leg of the course. Therefore when Y bears away below her proper course and interferes with B, she breaks rule 24.2.
6. Reasons for accepting submission 174-14 was: Team racing call C3 has existed in its present form since the first ISAF Team Racing Call Book was published. The team racing community believe the decision in the call is necessary. However, the interpretation that boat Y in the call breaks rule 24.2 has recently been questioned. This new rule in the team racing appendix clarifies the interpretation
7. The same arguments mentioned under reasons apply to Fleet Racing. So the same rule change should be made in RRS 24.2.
8. If RRS 24.2 is changed as proposed, the new rule D1.1(e) is not relevant anymore.
9. This simplifies the rules.
 
Team Racing Call C3

Rule 22.1 Starting Errors
Rule 24.2 Interfering with Another Boat

Question
After the start, B is sailing on port tack towards the pre-start side of the starting line without having started. Y has started correctly and bears away below her proper course onto a collision course with B. B gybes and keeps clear of Y. B protests. What should the call be?

image.png 14.8 KB

Answer
Penalize Y. At position 1, B is keeping clear of Y as required by rule 22.1. When Y bears away after position 1 she breaks rule 24.2 as she is no longer sailing her proper course and she interferes with B, a boat subject to rule 22.1.

Submissions 
 
 



Created: 20-Apr-09 16:08
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
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  • International Judge
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0
Q;  When do you think the PC stared to apply to Blue? Important to determine if the exclusion in 24.2 can be applicable to her.

The proper course exemption to rule 24.2 applies when Green starts sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start. 

The facts found say "immediately after the starting signal Green bore away". The diagram shows Green starting to sail towards the pre-start side of the starting line about 1/2 to 1 boat length after position 2. Until that point Blue is the keep clear boat under rule 10

When Blue sees Green starting to sail towards the pre-start side of the starting line, she knows she is no longer the keep clear boat and 1-3 seconds later comes to a close-hauled course. As soon as Blue starts to luff to a close hauled course Green needs to continue to keep clear by luffing, she does not. In fact she does the opposite and bears away further.

The diagram shows Blue sailing another 2 boat lengths after the starting gun, at 8 knots that would be 2 seconds at 4 knots, 4 seconds. Blue cannot instantaneously luff to a close hauled course as it takes time to turn a boat. If the race committee displays the X flag within 5 seconds it is generally considered to have promptly displayed the recall signal. So one could infer that Blue has promptly come to a close-hauled course.

We don’t know why Blue sailed two boat lengths before luffing to a close hauled course, but no facts supports that she acted to interfere with Green.
  1. Maybe Blue delays coming to close hauled because she thinks that Green is the right-of-way boat and rule 22.1 does not apply until X flag is displayed on the RC boat with one sound signal and Green starts sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line to start.
  2. Maybe there was a starboard tack boat that Blue had to pass astern of before she could luff.
  3. Maybe she wanted to go right to pick up a wind shift and wanted to make sure she took Green’s transom.
  4. Maybe she had the mainsheet in a knot and could not sheet in immediately.
 
We don't have facts found to tell us.

Even if you decide that Blue must immediately come to a close hauled course, that doesn’t mean she has broken rule 24.2 if she does not immediately come to her close hauled course, it just means you apply the test in the rule. “If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1.” However, Green remains subject to rule 22.1 and when Blue, a right-of-way boat, changes course, Green, a keep-clear boat is newly obliged to take action to keep clear.

Shouldn't we assume that Blue was not acting to interfere with Green until we are sure she was?
Created: 20-Apr-09 17:17
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
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0
Mark, it appears that they did not act on 178-15, I suspect because they did not want to make a PC try to evaluate the boat's "state of mind." Seems to me a lot cleaner to determine if, at the time of the incident, a boat either was or was not sailing her proper course, and so either was not or was subject to 24.2. 

With the added caveat of "if reasonably possible" which was not in the 2013 version of the rule.
Created: 20-Apr-09 17:28
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
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0
If you take the three incidents below, which boats get DSQ'd?
image.png 40.6 KB


All three submissions were adopted. However, when combining the three submissions into the final language of the rule the phrase 'act to" was not used. Case 126 Question 3 still appears to imply the "act to"  thinking "L deviated from her proper course to the offset mark in order to luff X."
Created: 20-Apr-09 18:38
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
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Re Case 126 it does imply that L deliberately interfered (and that might indeed have been the case). But if the finding was just "L deviated from her proper course to the offset mark." would the decision be different do you think?
Created: 20-Apr-09 20:33
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
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  • National Umpire
0
Mark,

I have to have a talk with Robin. You clearly have way too much time on your hands. Don’t get me wrong. I very much enjoyed the trip to the murky  rooms of the rule making.

Next time we can dive into the Match racing Call N6 and resurrect our discussion from San Diego? No?

Well, back to the example. Lot of time was spent on the Blue becoming the RoW boat, hence the obligation on Green.

This puts a premium on getting the PC for a boat absolutely right. 

Maybe the bottom line to this scenario is get more FF about why Blue did what she did and what Green considered as her best option when she started to return.

Blue was going to start on Port for a reason. To Port tack the other boats/fleet. Why would she then sail toward the middle of the line and give up any possible advantage she may have had, had she started at the pin or as close to it as possible?

I think we can close this one with the following:

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Kim

Created: 20-Apr-10 01:37
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
If the luff to close hauled by Blue after position 3  was a luff Blue would have done in the absence of Green being there, then we should conclude that the turn, while being subject to rule 16.1, would be Blue’s proper course and did not breach rule 24.2. If the luff was slower or delayed compared to the luff that would have been done in the absence of Green, then Blue is not sailing her proper course and if it was reasonably possible to not interfere with Green, Blue would have broken rule 24.2.
 
The intention of rule 24.2  is to stop a right of way boat interfering with a keep clear boat when such interference is not part of the expected course of the right of way boat. The only time Green can be exonerated in such an incident is when Green is compelled by Blue to break rule 22.1. Green should continue to take all actions to keep clear of Blue. There may be examples where Green fails to keep clear (she did not take avoiding action) while Blue also breaks rule 24.2 if Green could have done more to keep clear but did not.

 
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Created: 20-Apr-12 20:36
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Mark, you cannot make a blanket statement like that. There are possible reasons for Blue to have delayed her luff, including her expectation that Green was going to pass across Blue's bow. A delay to maximize clear air and avoid Green in such an expectation would be a legitimate proper course for Blue to pursue to benefit both boats. Green is a physical obstruction (not a RULE obstruction) to Blue's original game plan and she has a right to deal with it as she sees fit.
Created: 20-Apr-12 21:52
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
The intention of rule 24.2 is to stop a right of way boat interfering with a keep clear boat when such interference is not part of the expected course of the right of way boat.

The second sentence of rule 24.2 has a proper course test and if you find that Blue is sailing her proper course then she can not break rule 24.2. The definition of proper course is "A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term." The other boat referred to in rule 24.2 is Green. So in the absence of Green would Blue's course be different? If Blue would sail the same course in the absence of Green, rule 24.2 does not apply, because Blue is sailing her proper course. If Blue would sail a different course then rule 24.2 applies, but it doesn't mean Blue breaks rule 24.2. 

There are possible reasons for Blue to have delayed her luff, including her expectation that Green was going to pass across Blue's bow. A delay to maximize clear air and avoid Green in such an expectation would be a legitimate proper course for Blue to pursue to benefit both boats. Green is a physical obstruction (not a RULE obstruction) to Blue's original game plan and she has a right to deal with it as she sees fit. 

I agree, but this doesn't mean Blue is sailing her proper course. It could indicate that Blue is unable to sail her proper course because Green is breaking rule 22.1.


Rule 24.2 - If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1. However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course.

Proper Course - A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.


Created: 20-Apr-12 22:50
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