Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Discussion of US Appeal 123

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
I was wondering if we could discuss US123?

First, I want to say that I think that the USAppComm developed simple and clever scenarios to illustrate and examine the questions at hand and I don’t have any issue with their conclusions. 

That said, I have something whispering in my ear telling me that the answers to both scenario #2 and #3 are likely not what your average racer would have in their minds if faced with those situations.  Given as they point out, there is no requirement of communication between the boats under their scenarios, these scenarios can lead to confusion and dangerous situations on the water. 

  1. Does anyone else share this feeling that Scenario #2 and #3 would not be generally understood (or is it just me)?  If so, beyond this well written Appeal, what are other strategies to illustrate this understanding? 
  2. In the recent thread regarding the “triangle” under 30.2/3/4, the topic of the word “side” was also brought up.  Could the RRS benefit from the addition of “side” being added to the definitions such that whenever used and italicized in the rules, it is clearly defined to refer to the “the side of the boat or boats being referenced”?

Ang
Created: 20-Jan-20 13:29

Comments

Juuso Leivonen
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • National Judge
1
Ang, WS also dealt with this in match race rapid response call 2018.004 (https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RapidResponseCall2018.004-[24165].pdf). 

It is a helpful rule of thumb that they state there that 
For the purpose of rule 19, the determination of inside and outside boat is relative to the right of way boat and the obstruction when the boats are at the obstruction.

As long as you remember this as a sailor/umpire/judge, things are a lot easier :)

Created: 20-Jan-20 14:37
Theodor Beier
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
The appeal seems to say that overkill trumps logic.  So be it.  I would agree that waiting a few seconds for one of the involved parties to respond is the polite/corinthian/proper thing to do; plus it could save the jury some unnecessary paper work.
Created: 20-Jan-20 17:35
John Thorne
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
I strongly disagree with the answer to scenario 2, answer 4.  There is no inside or outside in this situation and W has unrestricted ROW.  L is required to stay clear and has the ability to do so by altering course and/or gybing.  Scenario 3 makes no sense.
Created: 20-Jan-20 20:06
Ross Adams
Nationality: Australia
0
I wonder what everyone's thoughts are on this bit;

"Boats are “at” an obstruction when the obstruction is influencing the course of one of them"

Specifically, you may be 100s of yards away from something and it can influence your course. Why stay on a close haul if it means you hit the wharf in 500 meters if you can bear away a bit and sail past it? But to claim it is an obstruction would not seem right.
Created: 20-Jan-21 04:07
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Ross, we had a pretty good discussion of "influence" in another thread and there were some divergent positions. https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/288-to-be-racing-or-finished-racing-that-is-the-question

I think the most conservative interpretation is that it is an immediate and direct effect on the course options of a boat.  If you are 100's of yards away, sure, the obstruction might be 'in your thoughts' so to speak .. and "influence" those thoughts about what to do next and when, but you could spin a 360 right there .. even at a gradual curve .. and thus your course is not "influenced".  

I've settled on thinking of it in those terms.  - Ang
Created: 20-Jan-21 14:08
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