Limit marks are a pain.  At a starting line competitors naturally assume that the mark is on the line and hence might start prematurely if it is on the course side of the line.  If its on the pre-start side of the line and sufficiently far back that a boat clears it before the line, it means nothing because there cannot be a mark of the course on the pre-start side.

Regarding finishing, see the definition.  A boat finishes when any part of her hull crosses the line.  Hence there is no error on the part of the RC making a sound signal.  The limit mark is not a rounding mark to be left on a particular hand.  If its so far on the course side that it is not overlapped with the boat (if you know what I mean)  then crossing the line between the 2 marks becomes difficult to call.   A boat could go inside the inner limit then alter course so as to be between the two marks when she crosses the line.  Conversely, she could go outside the inner limit and alter so she isnt between the 2 marks when she crosses the line.  

If the inner limit is beyond the finish line, it has no meaning.  After a boat finishes, having sailed the course, there is no obligation to pass another mark on a particular side.  

If you really must have an inner limit, have it on the course side and define it as a mark of the course to be left on required side(s). 

Using the limit mark in the description of an obstruction is likely to cause more issues.

The limit mark does not have a required side, may a boat be entitled to mark room?

Will or shall.  As I understand shall is used to put obligations on competitors.  Will to state intentions of the OA.

Charles .. to putting a finer point on what you are suggesting, is this what you are saying? (for example).. 

SI #.0 Marks
SI #.1 The port-end finishing mark will be a yellow tomato.  
SI #.2 The InnerLimitMark will be a green tomato.
SI #.3 All other rounding marks will be orange cylinders

SI #.0 Course
SI #.1 The course shall be Start - M1 (port) - M1 (starboard) - InnerLimitMark (starboard) - Finish

SI #.0 Finish
SI #.1 The finish line is between the blue flag on the mast ashore on the starboard end and the course side of the port-end finishing mark

Then have the RC make sure they place the InnerLimitMark on or just-slightly behind the line.

1a) NSC, but does it really matter unless the SI changes scoring for alphabet scores?
1b) Yes, A5.1(a), “it shall”. 
2) Yes, the boat did not satisfy the definition “finish” as per the SI. 
3) No, she fails the test of 61.4(b), “made, significantly worse through no fault of her own.”
4) No, will and shall mean the same thing.
5) Yes, for two onshore based finish marks, define both marks as marks of the course (a gate), place them on the course side of the finish, and you resolve the ambiguity, but from the SI language it appears that the “inner mark” is a mark and has a required side, assuming it is on the course side of the finish. 

Angelo, i assume there will be other marks of the course so they can be listed with required hands.

Eric, finish is defined in the definitions and SIs cannot change definitions

The SI isn’t changing a definition. The SI must define  the “finish line” for the definition to work. The SI appears to define the finish line as being between the inner and outer limit marks. Without seeing specific language we are only assuming however. 

Here are my thoughts:

Q1a - I'm not sure either score is correct.  Boat A has crossed the finish line as defined in the SI, i.e. between the mast and outer mark, so she has finished and is not DNF.  There is an additional requirement to cross the finish line between the inner and outer marks, but this doesn't change the definition of the finish line and the fact that Boat A crossed that line.  The inner mark is not a mark of the course, so Boat A has actually sailed the course, so NSC is not correct either.

Q1b - I think the RC should score the boat in her finishing position and then could protest her for breaking the SI that says she must go between the inner and outer mark.

Q2 - I don't think this would qualify a boat for redress.  She crossed the finish line and got a sound signal.  The RC has no idea whether the boat actually sailed the rest of the course properly.  All they know is that she crossed the finish line in the direction from the last mark.

Q3 - While the RC may or may not have made an error, I don't see how Boat A would get past the 'through no fault of her own' requirement to be eligible for redress.  Boat A did not sail between the inner and outer marks all on her own, the sound signal did not cause that.

Q4 - No, I don't think the requirement in the SI would change the fact that Boat A is not eligible for redress.

Normally, when writing race documents, 'will' is considered a promise by the writer of the document to the reader and 'shall' is considered a command to the reader of the document to do something.  So, in this case, it would be a promise from the RC to the boats that they will make a sound signal when each boat crosses the finish line.  The RC tells the boats that they shall pass between the inner and outer marks.  I have heard that those on the east side of the pond reverse the meaning of will and shall.  From a practical stand-point, I don't think it truly matters.

Q5 - On San Francisco Bay we have a similar situation.  It is handled by making a line between the inner buoy and the shore an obstruction.  The finish line is then between the flag and the outer mark.  This allows for movement of the inner mark with the tide relative to where the placard and the outer mark are and they don't have to be in a line.

7   AREAS THAT ARE OBSTRUCTIONS
  7.1. Any line bounded by the following points is designated as an obstruction. Boats are prohibited from crossing any of these lines when sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing:
  7.1.1. All classes: - StFYC inner mark “B” and the closest point ashore (e)

11  THE FINISH
      The finishing line will be between the StFYC outer mark “A” and a yellow placard on the StFYC Race Deck.  [N.B. Mark "A" is the mark just above the 'v' in 'Priv'.]


There are a number of possibilities that should be considered when writing the SI.  Which of these boats has broken the SI relative to the three possible locations of the inner mark.

Scenario 1
Q 1a- DNF
Q 1b – Yes
Scenario 2
Q 2 – No
Scenario 3
Q 3 – No
Scenario 4
Q 4 – No
Scenario 5
Q 5 – No

Eric, the trouble is the finish line is not between the inner and outer limit marks.  That would be simple if difficult for the RC to sight.  The finish line is between the mast on the shore and the outer limit mark.  

I wonder if you can hit the inner limit mark.  The definition of mark says a mark has a specified side.  The side of the inner limit mark may be implied but it isn't specified.

I don't see any mention yet of rule 63.5(c)

 63.5(c)  If there is a conflict between
       (1) two or more rules that must be resolved before a decision can be made, and

       (2) those rules are in the notice of race, the sailing instructions, or any of the other documents that govern the event under item (g) of the definition Rule,

then the protest committee shall apply the rule that it believes will provide the fairest result for all boats affected.

The RRS do not favor the SI over the NoR, although many SIs do say the SIs prevail.

We need to see specific language in order to answer most of these questions. For instance, I don't know what a "limit mark" is, or how it is defined, and I've been racing small boats for many thousands of hours, all over the world, over 32 years.
I also think the specifics of the situation (a drawing for sure) would be needed before determining redress.

Given that confusion, it seems obvious to me that unless another boat can demonstrate they were behind BECAUSE of the limit mark, that redress would be easily granted in this case.

FWIW .. IMO .. if the SI's are as described, the critical error in them are the words "to finish a boat will sail between .. ".  The first sentence of the SI that defines the FL as between a mark and a pole is fine.

You all know I like a good dance on the head of a pin .. :-) ...,. I definitely could argue that the SI's in fact described 2 finish lines .. one being between the buoys and one between the pole and outer buoy.

So .. there we have the error by the RC that is of no fault of the boat.  The boat finished by at least one of the criteria in the SI's.



Simple solution for this regatta .. if they MUST use the pole . .is as Charles suggested and I exemplified (below).  Otherwise .. if possible .. position folk so that they can site down the line between the buoys (though, table service may be sacrificed we all under stand).

Step 1 - Define the finish line between the pole and the "finish mark" (drop the outer limit mark wording as the FL is not being defined by something beyond the mark).

Step 2 - Define the "inner limit mark" as a mark of the course

Step 3 - Define what the marks are or look like

i agree with Angelo (and others who get to the same points).