Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
NYE "Word Problem": OCS around the pin-end
P
Angelo GuarinoNationality: United States
Certifications:
- Regional Judge
- Fleet Measurer
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Ahh yes .. the dreaded "word problem" from grade-school math class!
-------- [I made a couple edits since the email blast, so please reread the question below] ---------
A boat crosses the starting-line early close to the pin, which is port-side of the line, and gets called OCS after the starting-signal under a P-flag start. The boat then rounds the pin counter-clockwise, leaving the pin to its port-side without touching it, and his bow and hull re-crosses the starting-line in the proper direction, heading to the first mark.
Later he checks the scores and sees he's been scored OCS. He files a scoring inquiry, indicating in his query that he rounded the pin to port and crossed the line a second time from the pre-start side.
The RC agrees that after being OCS that they saw him turn around the outside of the pin counterclockwise (leaving it to port) and then cross the starting-line .. but stand by their position that he never rectified his starting error.
-------- [I made a couple edits since the email blast, so please reread the question below] ---------
A boat crosses the starting-line early close to the pin, which is port-side of the line, and gets called OCS after the starting-signal under a P-flag start. The boat then rounds the pin counter-clockwise, leaving the pin to its port-side without touching it, and his bow and hull re-crosses the starting-line in the proper direction, heading to the first mark.
Later he checks the scores and sees he's been scored OCS. He files a scoring inquiry, indicating in his query that he rounded the pin to port and crossed the line a second time from the pre-start side.
The RC agrees that after being OCS that they saw him turn around the outside of the pin counterclockwise (leaving it to port) and then cross the starting-line .. but stand by their position that he never rectified his starting error.
- Q1: Is it possible that the RC is correct? If so or if not, show how it is either possible or impossible.
- Q2: Does the answer/solution change if instead of a P-flag, an I-flag was flown? Again explain/show why/why-not.
[BTW, this is not a "puzzler" like the last one .. I have not knowingly inserted any "red-herrings" into the question. That said, I purposely excluded a drawing and other scenario information as to not limit the imagination].
Comments
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Also .. there are 2 questions posed. Please address each one separately, showing and proving your result for each.
John
Q2: No. (The same answer applies even at I flag start.
Beeing OCS the boat lost a piece of equipment ( e.g. spinnaker pole) which remained in the water at the course side of the starting line, when the boat (without the pole) made its turn around the pin end mark and after the starting signal her bow and hull recrosses the starting line.
Note: At I flag start, even if the pole moves from "above the starting line" to "above the starting line extension" , the RC woiuld be correct.
Let's put your solution in our back pocket and let us stipulate that all parts, equipment and crew remain with the boat during this scenario?
I'm surprised nobody has chosen to supply a drawing to "show" their work :-)
Here is a cat flying a hull at P4 and P5 and the port hull does not comply with 29.1 and the definition of 'Start'.
Same answer for R 30.1 start
Q2. No. In this case the boat has sailed outside the pin and in rounding it has crossed an extension of the line and complied with 31.1. UNLESS, the pin is of the line but not at its end. That is, the end of the line is defined by a mast or staff on a nearby committee vessel, and the boat sails between the pin and the CV. You did say the pin was at the port side of the line, not the port end of the line.
Are those creative enough? ;)
And I'd discount the masthead theory, because in having to gybe to round the mark, the masthead would - almost certainly - have cleared the mark.
John Ball I thought about that but "in normal position" isn't a criteria for definition of start or for rules 29 and 30. Only for definitions of clear ahead/clear astern/overlapped and finish.
But I'm also not sure that an item of equipment lost overboard would still count as belonging to the boat for the purposes of RRS.
. If I flag applied they probably would have crossed an extension so would be OK.
But 29.1 isn't really directed at boats, rather it's directed at the RC. Even though the RC may take the flag down at 4 minutes (even if an OCS boat has not returned and started), I don't think the RRS places any time limit on a late starter so I believe the OCS boat may still start unless the SIs define a limit.
Below was what I had in mind when writing the question (and now it seems so mundane!).. which assumes the mark is short enough for the sail to clear it. Just a sail flying over the pin and a portion of it remaining on the course-side while the hull rounds the mark and recrosses the line.
29.1 Individual Recall is as follows .. (emphasis added)
Part of what I found interesting in thinking about this was whether or not there is a difference in the P-flag and I-flag start below.
Assume the gun goes off just after position #1.
Under I-Flag, Yellow is obviously.. OCS. What about under P-flag?
"A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal... any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line in the direction of the first mark"
In this case, Yellow was never completely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and so did not start. Her score would be DNS and not OCS.
Under I flag she breaks 30.1 (on course side during the last minute before her starting signal, never sails across an extension to the pre-start side before starting), and breaking 30.1 is one of the conditions in A11 for OCS.
This presumes that "sail across an extension" in 30.1 means that hull, crew and equipment must be entirely on the pre-start side, not just that the boat's hull passes to the pre-start side of the starting mark (anyone want to argue that?)
So yeah, I think under P flag Y is DNS, under I flag she's OCS.
If the above case is true, would below be any different? If so, why?
In the second scenario clearly the boat would be aware that she hadn't started properly. First scenario is a bit more of a wobbler - the boat should see that her boom passes over the pin but might not be aware that it had been over an extension of the line from the starting signal. Tougher call for her.
I'm wondering how the race officers in the crowd think those two scenarios would be called on the water. Do you think an individual recall would be signaled in either scenario? And if not, would it be appropriate to hail the boat, let her know she was currently DNS and give her an opportunity to correct the error?
The starting signal is at 1 or 2 under an I flag. Does Yellow make a proper start? (Assume no boat touches the pin, and yes, this depicts a crappy start by both Y and B)
As for your drawing, Yellow is good under I-flag. After 3.5 she’s satisfied 30.1 IMO.
As far as my previous post, I disagree with you and Murray.
IMO (and at the risk of being slammed by the RO’s)....
So I feel that the starting line is bounded by its ends and a boat is only on the pre-start or course side of the line if she's within those bounds (or their perpendiculars). Otherwise she's on one side or another of the extensions of the line.
Lines can have multiple segments. The “extensions” referenced in those rules serve specific purposes which are important.
For instance, look closely at the last half of the last sentence in 30.1 ..
This rule references the extension beyond the starting-line [segment] so that it forces an OCS boat to go outside the ends before crossing. But also notice, the extension has a pre-start side above ... the boat crosses the “extension from the course to the pre-course side”.
So the extensions define segments defined by the starting line’s points (the starting marks), which must or may be crossed (depending upon the rule reference), but the “areas”, the pre-start and the course side of the line, extend along with these extensions of the starting line.
BR
Dusan
There are either 2 views of it, as illustrated below ..
... or ....
Looking at the 2 scenarios ..
Assuming the gun at #2, Yellow above does not meet the definition of start in either understanding.
In the combined-areas, Yellow is on the course side at her starting signal at #2, so she gets an X-flag and sound
In the separate-area, Yellow is not in the starting-line course-side box, so no X-flag and sound.
Scenario #2, gun at #2
In the combined-areas, Yellow is on the course side at her starting signal at #2, so she gets an X-flag and sound
In the separate-area, Yellow is not in the starting-line course-side box, so no X-flag and sound.
Let's look at how 30.1's language fits both views ..
I think 30.1's language is compatible with both views.
I'm 50/50 on it honestly .. I can see it both ways.
For those in the "separate areas" camp, are we saying that a boat must be completely inside the "prestart side of the line" box before crossing the line? Notice when orange crosses at 2, her stern is not is outside of the box.
It's important that we know what it is .... as we may be asked in a redress to determine if an RC X-flag and sound, or lack thereof, was an improper action to omission.
For those in the separate areas camp, are you ready to say that if an RC gives the Yellow boat above an X-flag and sound (across the line of starboard) that is was an improper action?
29.1
If "course side of the starting line" in 29.1 and 29.2 were to mean the same as "course side of the starting line or one of its extensions" in 30.1, then why is the "or one of its extensions" even included in 30.1? It would be totally unnecessary.
Again, in rule 22.1 there is a distinction made between the "pre-start side of the starting line" and the pre-start side of an extension of the starting line.
22.1
My conclusion is that rules 29.1 and 29.2 reference the course side of the starting line but not the course side of an extension of the starting line.
Angelo,
In your last diagram, which part of Orange's hull. crew or equipment is on the course side of the starting line?
Orange crosses the starting line, is not entirely on the "prestart side of the segmented line (separate zones) ", but according to everybody (I hope) it would start correctly. If the sides of the starting line are combined, it starts. Nevertheless, I think, that a line segment does not divide the plane to 2 half-planes. If my understanding of geometry is correct, than I suggest to look for better wording and submit it.
( Probably just add to the Def. Start ... on the pre-start side of the starting line and its extensions).
...And I wish, that the rules experts also find much more stright wording, to let the competitors understand without disputes, that the triangle at Black- or U- flags is not an obstruction, even if a boat "shall not be" there. -
(Probably the same wording as in I flag rule helps
-instead of :
"n
o part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment shall bein the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal.If a boat breaks this rule and is identified,..." ,use :
"and any part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment is in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal, ..."
This is just my first idea, for a proper submission it needs surely much more detailed analysis of possible impacts...
So I think in your yellow scenarios the boats are not, strictly speaking OCS so not subject to individual recall, but have not started properly and unless they correct the error they're DNS. In the second yellow scenario I can't imagine the boat making a plausible claim that they didn't know they were over at position 2, X flag or no. The first scenario would be more difficult for a boat to recognize and probably also more difficult for an RC to call.
I'll admit your orange scenario makes my brain hurt. If I'm right about the above then I guess to be consistent I'd have to say that Orange is DNS, not OCS and shouldn't get an X flag. I suspect that 99 or so of 100 ROs would give an X flag in that situation as it seems like it would be very difficult for a line spotter to detect that the boat was simultaneously over the starting line and not completely within the bounds of the start line.
My desire for greater understanding is in the context of how a judge should understand and evaluate the RC's OTW acts, omissions and scoring actions if it were to come to a redress hearing.
For those in the separate area camp, assuming the start gun goes off just before #2 (such that Yellow is clear of the line) and they Finish, what are the [actions required by the rules]
"proper actions"of the RC?Are the RC's
proper actions[actions required by the rules] in both cases below, to sit still (no flags or sounds) and score both boats below DNS?Tim, re: 22.1 and 29.1 .. here they are both for reference ..
I think that both of these "can be" consistent with either the combined-area or separate-area interpretations. I think the important quality about both of these rules, in the context of this discussion, is that they are both single-rules that are written to accommodate starting errors under either P-flag or I-flag. Since I-flag requires sailing "across an extension" .. having 'crossing an extension' options in both 22.1 and 29.1 is necessary.
Also, I know this following point is very thin, but notice in 30.1, the wording is "the pre-start side" and not "its pre-start side". If 30.1 was written such that it was clear that the extensions had their own prestart sides, then I think this would point firmly to the "separate area" theory.
In practice does it look something like this, with both the "pre-start side" and "course side" of the starting line extending 'some distance' (say 1.5-2 BL's) over the extensions of the starting line?
.. If this is what it looks like, then in my drawing above, Green gets the X-Flag and sound and OCS if she doesn't fix her start .. and Yellow "starts" and gets her finish.
At first glance the language would be superfluous in rule 30.1 if "course side of the line " included course side of the extensions.
However, a narrow interpretation of the definition of OCS based on this would lead to absurd unintended outcomes in the real world. Angelo opening post gave a complex example , which is unlikely to occur in the real world. His more recent examples in the post above define the problem of a narrow interpretation in more likely real world scenarios.
In the Green example we can envisage a boat on starboard starting near the pin in a 3 minute sound sequence , misinterprets the 10 second horn, pulls the trigger at 10 seconds , sails over the line and when the gun goes, is over the extensions. Position #2 for the green boat in Angelo's diagram. Any Race Committee is going to call that OCS.
I would address the issue that Tim raises, by arguing that the rule writers did not create a narrow definition of " course side of the line " or "pre-start side of the line" in rules 22.1 , 30.1 and second half of 29.1. The language was added to those rules to provide greater clarity to those parts of the rules and ONLY those rules and should only be read in the specific context of those rules.
In Angelo's 2 most recent examples Green was OCS and Yellow started .
Returning to the unlikely scenario in Angelo's early example:
We are unlikely to see a start like that in our lifetimes when we contemplate boats fighting for inside overlap....and god help the RC who set up a start line like that.
BUT....if in the inevitable melee, confusion and bumping boats the RC was able to see Yellow's actions, it should be ruled OCS whether under P or I because some of the equipment was OCS from the time of the signal and never sailed completely to the prestart side of the line or its extensions.
I guess we have to stop and think if part of our equipment passes over the starting pin without hitting it. "Did I start correctly?"