Forum: Protest Committee & Hearing Procedures

Does a competitor "see the incident" if they see it on a video?

Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
100
Tips
Under rule 60.4(a)(2) A protest is invalid if ... she was not involved in it or did not see the incident.

A competitor watching a replay of the start sees two boats make contact. Neither boat takes a penalty although it is clear from the video that there was contact. The competitor notifies both parties and files a hearing request within the time limit alleging that both boats broke rule 14 and neither took a penalty.

1) Does seeing a video of an incident meet the requirement to "see the incident"?
2) Is the protest valid?
3) If valid what penalties, if any, should be imposed by the protest committee?
Created: Today 18:39

Comments

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Michael Butterfield
This seems to be messed upin the newrules, withe the new validity rules, even if you see but were not involvedin an incident you cannot protest. 

It is an absurd change but seems to be a reallity. 
Created: Today 19:01
John Leech
well spotted, and what an interesting unintended consequence 
Created: Today 19:33
Sue Reilly
50
Tips
That is why I change it in the SIs:

Rule 60.4(a)(2) is changed as follows: “if it alleges a breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 and is
from a boat that was not involved in and did not see, the incident, or”.
Created: Today 19:57
Wayne Balsiger
Nationality: United States
I think the intent of the words "see the incident" means see it on the water when it happened. That also means that on the water RRS 44 Penalties at the time of an incident are still available to the competitor.
Created: Today 19:09
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
RRS 60.2(a) does not use the word 'see'.  It says

If a protest concerns an incident observed by the protestor in the racing area:

I understand this to mean that the observing must take place in the racing area.

It doesnt address the nature of the observation.

How about if a boat, whil   racing in the racing area observes an incident in the racing area:
  1. on drone video?
  2. On live broadcast/YouTube/whatever?
  3. On an AIS/Yellowbrick/etc tracker?
Created: Today 21:17
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Michael Butterfield
Slightly different, not part 2 but of interest.
Recently i had two protests,, days after an event finished, when the boat, watched the event vidios, saw what it considered breaches of the class rules.
How do you apply protest time limits to this?
Created: Today 21:40
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Mike,

Was it a dimension/measurement issue (that could be observed after racing by the technical committee?

Was it a prohibited action or configuration while racing?

Was it an instantaneous or an ongoing breach?
Created: Today 21:48
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Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
I love this question!

IMHO they saw a video depicting the incident. They didn't see the incident. 

So no. Invalid. 
Created: Today 22:01
Al Sargent
Nationality: United States
This post started out as a question about "see" -- and does video count? But live versus recorded question is moot, since there's a bigger issue that Michael brings up about this wroding of 60.4.a.2:

...but she was not involved in it OR did not see the incident...

Using an OR rather than AND means that a competitor CANNOT protest any incident that they were not involved in. It doesn't matter whether they saw it or not.

To explain, if a boat was not involved in an incident, but saw it (either live or on video), the propositional logic parses out as:

Protest is NOT valid if:
  • (Not involved = TRUE) OR (did not see the incident = FALSE), which logically reduces to:
  • TRUE OR FALSE, which logically reduces to:
  • TRUE

Whoever wrote the new version of 60 didn't check the logic of the new wording carefully enough.

Side note: Why doesn't World Sailing make draft versions of rules available for public comment? That's what we do in the software industry -- it's called open source software -- and it leads to much better quality. Good feedback can come from anywhere, and more eyes on a draft of code or rules catch more issues. Everyone reading this post is using open-source software and benefiting from this open feedback process.

For reference, the 2021-2024 equivalent rule, 60.1.a, reads as:

A boat may (a) protest another boat, but not for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless she was involved in or saw the incident;

For a boat that saw an incident but wasn't involved in it, the prepositional logic of these parses out as:

Protest is valid if:
  • (Involved = FALSE) OR (Saw the incident = TRUE)
  • FALSE OR TRUE
  • TRUE

The 2025-2028 has a tricky combination of double negatives and OR clauses that would be right at home on a university-level logic or software engineering course (which I took, hence the pedantic analysis above).

Again -- World Sailing needs to do better by having more of the sailing community review draft rules.
Created: Today 22:26
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John Quirk
Nationality: New Zealand
A very interesting subject (and especially for the future, as electronics develop and feature a lot more in yacht racing (drones and tracking devices etc-etc)

As such, I would say: in principle (and subject to authentication of the proposed evidence), yes, a valid protest (the competitor ‘has become critically and retrospectively aware of a material incident, and in all fairness raised the matter within the prescribed time limits’), and also citing the ‘Protest Committee Guidelines 2025’ and ‘Judges Manual January 2025’ and ‘RRS 2025-2028’  and ‘The Case Book for 2025 – 2028’.

The PC could perhaps elect to take the matter up in its own right.

Finally, I think that in 60.4 (a) (2) “or” is operative (‘either or’)

Created: Today 22:59
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