Forum: Protest Committee & Hearing Procedures

A protests B, C & D; B protests A & C; C protests only D .. but not all valid

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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Assume a scenario with 4 boats overlapped at a leeward rounding A -> D with A inside and D outside.  A touches the mark.  There is various bumper-boat contacts for all boats.  

All 4 boats deliver protests to the Race Office.  The PC, seeing that the protests are likely from the same incident, combines the protests into a single hearing.  Representatives for all 4 boats are at the hearing.

  • A protests B, C & D;
  • B protests A & C, and  
  • C protests only D

Starting with A's protest, since it names all parties, the PC takes evidence that A's protest might be invalid.  Next they look at B's and again they take evidence that B's might be invalid as well.  When they get to C's, it seems solid and likely valid, but her protest only identifies D.

The PC excuses the parties to discuss validity and finds that only C's protest of D is valid.

Understanding that it is likely that during C's hearing the PC will receive evidence that shows A and B were involved in this incident and may have broken a rule, how do you proceed after you bring the parties back for your validity decision?  Does your approach change if this hearing was scheduled days after the race and A and B drove a significant distance to be there?
Created: Today 12:20

Comments

Format:
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Michael Butterfield
The protest committee should protest the other boats see 60.4(c) (2)

Then continue. 
Created: Today 12:33
Graham Louth
Follow the procedure in RRS 63.2(d).
Created: Today 12:34
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Mike and Graham .. yes .. follow 60.4(c)(2) and RRS 63.2(d) .. but when?

During the validity part of A and B's .. the information gained cannot be used because those were invalid.  During C's validity the only thing learned was that C hailed "protest" and flew the red flag timely.

Do you excuse A and B .. start C v D, start taking evidence and then follow 60.4(c)(2) and  63.2(d) and start over?
Created: Today 12:37
Gijs Vlas
 Rule 60.4(c)(2)
 The protest committee may also protest if, during the hearing of a valid protest, it learns that another boat (not a party to the original protest) was involved in the incident and may have broken a rule.

In practice, this means that if a protest committee is involved in a hearing (or otherwise informed), and discovers another boat was implicated in the situation, it can close the original hearing, lodge its own protest, and then hear the cases together under Rule 63.2(d)
Created: Today 12:38
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Michael Butterfield
You have a valid protest, as soon as you hear of the other boats possably having broken a rule, you stop the hearing, protest the other boats and then resume the hearing.
The boats are all parties then can hear all evidence and ask questions and of course later as a party be disqualified. 
Created: Today 12:41
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Mike .. so you might excuse A and B momentarily (not parties to C v D) .. asking them to stay close .. start C v D but ask if A and B were involved and then proceed under 63.2(d).

.. or .. 

Might a PC, seeing this coming, gather some evidence during C's validity .. enough to justify 63.2(d) for efficiency?
Created: Today 12:47
Gijs Vlas
@ Angelo - What I do not understand is that A and B's protests would be invalid.
Under RRS 61.2(c), a protest “shall identify the incident.” That incident may involve one or more boats. So, a single protest form can validly include multiple boats, provided they were all part of the same incident (e.g., a three-boat mark-room pile-up). 
Created: Today 12:42
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18899 - Gijs Vlas
Gijs .. I didn't provide the defect in A's protest.  Assume A didn't hail "protest" on the water for instance and there was no damage or injury .. or the protest was delivered to the RO hours late and no "good reason" was given during validity.
Created: Today 12:44
Graham Louth
Before even starting to hear evidence about validity, I would seek to confirm that all three protests were indeed about the same incident, so as to confirm the decision to combine the three hearings into a single hearing (as per RRS 63.2(b)). If you did that then, in my view, you would already have the evidence you needed to proceed under 63.2(d) as soon as you had decided that A and B's protests were invalid, but C's was valid. So I would proceed in accordance with RRS 63.2(b) immediately.
Created: Today 13:03
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18902 - Graham Louth
, so as to confirm the decision to combine the three hearings into a single hearing (as per RRS 63.2(b))
Graham re: "I would seek to confirm that all three protests were indeed about the same incident, so as to confirm the decision to combine the three hearings into a single hearing"

Huh .. sounds interesting .. but in which protest was that evidence gathered if that evidence is gathered prior to validity?
Created: Today 13:07
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
50
Tips
After the protest committee, in its validity deliberations, decides that A's protests and B's protests are invalid, and C's protest is valid, it must recall the parties and
  • declare C's protest is valid and that the hearing of that protest will continue.
  • declare that A's protest is invalid and that the hearing of that protest is closed.
  • declare that B's protest is invalid and that the hearing of that protest is closed.

I think the protest committee should advise or request A and B to remain nearby.

There is no way to get around the requirements of RRS 63.4(a)(1).

The protest committee should then hear C's protest against d up until the protest committee 'learns that A and B may have broken a rule'.

The protest committee should then close the hearing of C's protest and protest A and B (including writing protests, informing A and B of the intention to protest, providing them with the protests, and informing them of the time and place of the hearing (which will be about 5 minutes after putting the protests into their hands)).

The protest committee then opens a new hearing to hear PC v A, PC v B, and C v D together.

As long as A and B don't leave (or advised not to leave) the protest hearing venue after initially having their protests declared invalid, there should be no problem
Created: Today 13:09
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18904 - John Allan
John .. also .. I didn't mention in my OP .. but one might want to keep an eye to RRS 63.4(e)(1).  A and B might end up witnesses if not parties.  So for that reason also, a process which is clean is beneficial.

PS:  Precisely the dialog i was hoping with this scenario.  "Being forewarned is being forearmed" :-)
Created: Today 13:20
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Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18904 - John Allan
One slight nitpick is that from the original post, it seems PC is more likely to protest B and C, rather than A and B.
Then am I right, there is some change in the order you hear evidence due to the invalid protests as compared to if they were valid?
Created: Today 14:03
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
OK, so when the protest committee announces its decision about the validity of A and B's protests, it could also advise them that they will be required as witnesses [in the hearing of C v D protest], and should stick around.

As witnesses, until they become parties to a valid protest they have to stay out of the protest room.

Actually, I wouldn't mind telling them 'It may be that as a result of the hearing of C's protest the protest committee will proceed to hear the allegations made in your protests'.
Created: Today 13:40
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Michael Butterfield
We when possible have a jury secretary to
Check for cases to be held together
Invalid cases exposed on the papers. 
Cases with insufficient parties where witnesses may beed to be parties. 

We then in advance protest some extra sailors to ensure a swift resolution of hearings. 
Created: Today 14:03
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