Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Case 89 - What about water bottles on lifelines?

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Angelo Guarino
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Nationality: United States
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Case 89 is short and to the point .. but to be honest .. it's a case that I didn't take notice of until today.

Case 89 talks about attaching a drinking container to a crew's body.  In my experience, it's pretty common for crew on larger boats with double lifelines on hot days to hang water bottles by a carabiner to a lifeline.

Reading this case, is that this is against the rules as well?

Comments? 
Created: Today 15:43

Comments

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Eric Rimkus
Nationality: United States
I do not see how Case 89 in any way restricts a boat from hanging a "water bottle by a carabiner to a lifeline". It specifically addresses the use of items such as Camelbacks that are worn.
There is no doubt that there is a point when a "water bottle" is no longer a water bottle and is being used as movable ballast (assuming being moved from one side of the boat to another), but a personal beverage I feel falls well short of that definition.
Created: Today 15:59
Al Sargent
Nationality: United States
Seems like what a person could drink during their time on the rail / watch period, would be a reasonable upper limit for the amount of water. Consuming more than 1 liter per hour can lead to water intoxication, so for a four hour shift on the rail, you'd want less than four liters per person.
Created: Today 16:14
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
I just think this is oddly and overly broadly written.  IMO .. they should have put a limit on the quantity and allowed it.  Make it "no more than 12oz/16oz carried by the individual, either by attachment to their person or carried with them".

I'd think we'd want to encourage people to keep hydrated for safety.
Created: Today 16:20
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Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
12oz/16oz!

Half the world won't know what you're on about! 

RRS 51 is all that's needed here. 
Created: Today 17:40
Tim O'Connor
RRS 50.3: 50.1 and 50.2 don’t apply to boats with lifelines. 

Therefore, Case 89, which is based on 50.1 (a) is irrelevant to boats with lifelines, so you can festoon them to your heart’s desire. 

The offshore rules at 3.14 provide for specs of weight and construction of lifelines that make the weight of the functional amount of water you could attach by way of bottles pretty de minimis compared to the lifelines themselves, to be honest. 
Created: Today 17:02
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Angelo Guarino
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Nationality: United States
Tim re:"RRS 50.3: 50.1 and 50.2 don’t apply to boats with lifelines. "

That is not correct.  50.2 states that 50.1(b) and (c) don't apply to boats with LL's.  

Case 89 is about 50.1(a), which does apply. 
Created: Today 17:30
Tim O'Connor
Fair, and you’re correct. 

However, 50.1 (a) is “wear or carry clothing or equipment for the purposes of increasing their weight”.

A bottle clipped to a lifeline is not worn; it is not carried; it is not clothing, and I don’t think it’s equipment; and it is not for the purposes of increasing their weight, that is, the weight of the person neither carrying nor wearing it. 

So, how can 50.1 (a) apply, given a bottle clipped to a lifeline is outside what the rule covers? And, if 50.1 (a) doesn’t then apply, what is the issue with people having bottles?
Created: Today 17:44
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Angelo Guarino
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Nationality: United States
Tim re: "However, 50.1 (a) is “wear or carry clothing or equipment for the purposes of increasing their weight”.

Correct .. but did you read the Case 89?

This is the answer .. 

Question
Does rule 50.1(a) permit a competitor to wear or otherwise attach to his person a beverage container while racing?

Answer
No. Except on a windsurfer or a kiteboard, there is no necessity for such a practice, and therefore its primary purpose must be considered to be to increase the competitor's weight.

  1. I think that is an amazingly overly broad conclusion .. that there is no necessity to carry even a small amount of drinking water with/on you and that "... therefore its primary purpose must be considered to be to increase the competitor's weight."
    1. Really .. therefore it must be considered?? IMHO .. what I highlighted in bold above is a flawed overly-broad assertion/conclusion.
  2. The reason I asked about the lifelines is what is the difference between a crew carrying a water bottle from side to side of the boat with them and attaching it to the lifeline and a water bottle attached to a harness?  It's the same amount of weight moving from side to side (which is why I asked the Q).

Again .. this is the first time I've actually thought about Case 89.  If the issue was not allowing crew to add weight to themselves, then simply put a volume-limit on it.

As it is written now .. there is no amount of water that is allowed.
Created: Today 17:56
Tim O'Connor
On 2, the difference is, surely: it’s not part of the definition for the application of the Rule, so the Rule does not apply. 
Created: Today 18:03
John Mooney
Nationality: United States
Angelo, you may be right (I haven’t looked carefully at the case), but there’s a practical limitation here that may well make the point moot: the protestor in such a situation would likely become famous for that protest, and would likely never hear the end of it.
Created: Today 18:09
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18563 - John Mooney
the protestor in such a situation would likely become famous for that protest, and would likely never hear the end of it.
John re: "the protestor in such a situation would likely become famous for that protest, and would likely never hear the end of it."

Yea .. maybe .. probably .. but I don't think that's a reason to keep something just because it's so poorly constructed that people would be too embarrassed to enforce it. 

Looks like the case is from 1996.  In the past 30 years I think it's safe to say that we've put competitor health and safety much more at the forefront than we did back then.

I think this Case is ripe for a reexamination under those grounds.
Created: Today 18:42
Tim O'Connor
Case 89 is that there is not a necessity for the water container to be worn outside of those exceptions with nowhere to stow or attach it, therefore the purpose of wearing it where that water container could be stowed is not due either to having the water - it could be stowed instead of worn, including clipped to a lifeline - or due to a necessity to wear it to have it - again, you could stow or clip it. Since it is not for those, it follows - that is, it must be considered - that it is to increase weight for stability, therefore it’s not permitted. 

I would note, though, as someone who once used a weight jacket back in the day as a handy way of transporting a six pack I’d won sailing, Rule 51 is phrased only in terms of water, and to adapt Merchant of Venice - the rule makes no mention of beer…
Created: Today 18:16
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18564 - Tim O'Connor
Rule 51 is phrased only in terms of water, and to adapt Merchant of Venice - the rule makes no mention of beer… Reply
Case 89 says "beverage container".

My point is that the issue at the heart of the case is a beverage container effectively moving with a crew member from side to side on the boat.  One might use that case to conclude that this also applies to beverage containers carried from side-to-side with crew.

IMO, Case 89 could have said the following (with respect to Ben and the rest of the metric world) and made more sense and seemed more rational to me.

Q: Does rule 50.1(a) permit a competitor to wear or otherwise attach to his person a beverage container while racing?

A: It depends upon the volume/weight of the beverage and container.  Any volume of beverage greater than 0.5L (0.5kg fluid) is beyond the reasonable immediate hydration needs of a competitor and therefore its primary purpose must  [should then] be considered to be to increase the competitor's weight [and not hydration]. 

Therefore, up to 0.5L/0.5kg of fluid is permitted and beyond those limits it is not.  (Note that rules B4 and F4 modify rule 50.1(a) for windsurfing competition and kiteboard racing.)
Created: Today 18:33
Jim Champ
I suppose it could be argued that there is no reason why drinking water should not be stowed in the cockpit and handed up when its actually needed and then handed back. Stowing water on the rail and transferring it from side to side at each tack seems to me a very dubious exercise. If it is considered to be permitted then the potential for abuse is obvious and very great.
Created: Today 18:29
Tim O'Connor
Rule 50.1 (a) doesn’t refer to a drinking container any more, though; Case 89 seems to be quoting an older version. Would anyone know when it changed?
Created: Today 18:42
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