Ólafur,

This is interesting.

First, I will say that diagrams are great when discussing rules.  Your diagram helps so much with your question.  What software did you use?

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As for your question, I think it is easiest to forget about the right gate mark for the moment.  Perhaps, the inclusion of the right mark rules is confusing things a bit.

So, at the left mark zone, Blue is inside/overlapped, and entitled to mark-room for the left mark.  By the definition, the mark-room is to sail to the mark from her position when rule 18 turned on (position 1).

Looking at the diagram, Yellow is preventing Blue from sailing 'TO' the mark throughout.  Yellow should have been giving mark-room from the moment she entered the zone (3 boat lengths from the mark).  Not only at 1.5 boat lengths.

Yellow, should have borne away, sailed by-the-lee or even gybed to give Blue that room much earlier then.

Blue could have pushed her case harder, by bearing off a little.  In doing so, she would have broken RRS 11, but would be exonerated by RRS 43.1(b).  Even if there was contact, she  would have broken RRS 14, but if there was no damage or injury, would be exonerated by RRS 43.1(c).

So in answer to your question then since Blue claimed mark-room then, "Yes!  Yellow broke RRS 18.2 at the left mark.  She was required to give more room."

I hope that helps.  Let's see what anyone else says.

First yes great to have a good diagram.  If I might suggest, including the moment the first boat touches the zone would be even better.  And avoiding using blue boats would allow us to read the position numbers.

Which leads to my question, if yellow failed to give mark room at some point, when did that first happen.  Mark room switches on when yellow touches the zone.  At that time, blue can then assume a straight course to the mark from nearly 4 hull lengths from the mark.  It looks to me like yellow would be blocking blue’s straight course to the mark at that instant.  Would I be correct in concluding that the concepts of Case 147 would apply to give yellow some time to bear away and give blue the space she needs?  In Case 147, a starboard tack boat gives a port tack boat room by bearing away even though the starboard tack boat has already caused the port tack boat to break rule 10. 

If that is correct, then how much time does yellow get to commence her bear away after touching the zone.  2 seconds?

These mark room incidents where there is no contact always leave me wondering what the protesting party needs to prove exactly.

In the case at hand, the blue boat never actually points toward the yellow boat or attempts to push onto the straight-line course to the mark. If yellow says they were watching blue and ready to turn away and give all the room needed, is that a valid defence?  It seems to me that if the facts show that Yellow likely would be able to change course and not interfere with blue then they would not break rule18.  Perhaps view this as a version of “space freely given by a boat with room”.

To illustrate this further, what if in the current set of facts, yellow, the give room boat had surged clear ahead and maintained enough speed to keep ahead.  Yellow would be blocking the mark room course of blue but not interfering due to yellow’s speed and space ahead.  I think in this case yellow does not break 18 as blue is able to sail within her mark room directly to the mark with no actual or apprehended interference. 

If that is correct, then when we go back to the overlapped case, why would we now penalize yellow since she did not interfere with the actual course sailed by blue?  My suggested answer would be that at the protest blue has to prove the following when there is no contact:

1.        Yellow is blocking blue’s “mark room course of straight to the mark” and,

2.        Blue states to the committee that she wished to change course to sail that course but did not change course due to yellow’s close position, and

3.        Blue’s statement in 2 of her intention to change course, if there had been space, is likely true due to the position of the boats and what the committee views as the likely intention of any competent sailor in that position. (Similar to what a starboard boat would have to prove when claiming they had to bear off to avoid a port tack boat).

Am I on the right track?

My opinion is that Yellow broke R 18.2 from she first touched the zone up to and around P2 as she appeared to be making no effort to allow Blue to sail her proper course to the mark. If there appears to be a simple way to apply a rule, then we should do so.

The software for the diagram is called boats.exe and is available for free download from
http://boats.sf.net

John

Y must give MR but she is also ROW under R 11 so she doen't have to give more 'rooom' than is absolutely necessary under the definition of 'room'. There is no rule that gives her the right to sail 'directly' to the mark.

Y does what is required of her and is clear ahead at pos. 4.

B could have easily rounded the left-hand mark if they had chosen to do so.

'Proper Course' is not relevant here.

So, what is “mark room course of straight to the mark”? What rule might this be?

Hi David,
I look at it this way. From the moment Yellow touched the zone, Blue was overlapped and entitled to mark room.
The definitions for mark room and proper course apply.
Mark-Room Room for a boat
(a) to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it,

Proper Course A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course as quickly as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.
 
So I imagine a corridor for Blue staring when Mark room started - and it is reasonable to say represents Blue's proper course. Yellow makes no effort to allow Blue to sail her proper course and pushed Blue out of that corridor.

John

Bob,

I based my opinion largely on OP's fact, "Blue claims mark room..."  I took that to read that Blue was not happy with the situation and wanted to be in a better position.  When exactly, we don't know.

I also imagined the scenario at a local club regatta!! - I pictured a lot of shouting between the helms, with the inside boat becoming increasingly frustrated as they got closer to the mark.  I did not picture a quiet tranquil approach like we might envisage looking at the diagram on a computer.

You essentially ask two questions.

1.  When does the outside boat have to act to give room?
2.  Can Outside claim as an r18 defence she was 'ready to give room' if Inside took it?

1.  When does the outside boat have to act to give room?

I remember discussing many years ago whether a boat required to give mark-room should anticipate her obligation!!  And here we are again.  History repeats itself, eh?!

Her obligation is created by her entering the zone outside-overlapped.  From this moment onwards, she must give room to the inside boat.  That's what the rule says.

Equally, Inside's rights to room only start when rule 18.2 is activated.

So I think I have always concluded that Outside does not have to create the space before her obligation.  She must commence doing so at the instance her obligation is activated.  So when she entered the zone, she should act promptly so that the inside boat can take that room 'promptly' per the definition of room.

I prefer this rather than saying, '2 seconds'.

2.  Can Outside claim as an r18 defence she was 'ready to give room' if/when Inside took it?

As for your second muse it's interesting.  Again, discussed over the ages.

Rather than a case 147 concept, I take a Case 50 philosophy in favour of the inside boat.

In other words, I don't think the inside boat needs to sail in a risky way (or god forbid, make contact) in order to make her own space or prove her point.

The space should be afforded to her to sail into.  In which case, Outside cannot claim, "I was watching and ready to keep clear!", if there is a chance that Inside was apprehensive whether room was going to be given.

Imagine again the scenario... Outside shouting 'no overlap', inside yelling 'overlap', hands waving wildly, hot red faces.   If so, then I could say that Inside had reasonable apprehension that room was not about to be given.

Well, on the contrary, if 10 boat lengths out, Yellow calmly, in a nice voice, said, "Hey Bob.  How are you doing?  How's the family?  Nice day out, right?  Look,  I can see you're inside-overlapped, so I'll give you room when you need it. I'm watching you carefully.  Don't want to scratch your lovely boat.   Have a good drop and rounding. Take care, buddy.  See you at the bar," then perhaps.

But how often does that happen?  You get what I mean.

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Tim,

The 'hard bear-away' tactic is technically sound and may work in an umpired match race, but in a club fleet race it is quite hard to nail in reality, since no one really knows where the zone is!!  If I was Yellow, I wouldn't count on that kind of move working out on the water or in the protest room!

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David,

I agree with JohnB's explanation that Blue's proper course was (for diagrammatic purposes) to sail in that corridor 'to' the mark.

(OK - in real life, say with an asymmetric kite, she may have wanted to hold a little speed and then bear away for a spinnaker drop, but let's agree for the sake of discussion that at some point she wanted to sail directly to the mark.  With a symmetrical spinnaker, the deeper course is even more convincing.)  Its sometimes easiest to stick to worst case /  'most room' needed for discussion.

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It's possible that you're suggesting that Yellow did in the end, let Blue sail to the mark after she was clear ahead at position 4, therefore complying with 18.  However, this reasoning couldn't be sensible.

Mark-room is to allow for orderly rounding of marks.  It's like a 'pause / time-out' in the tactical game, to get round the mark, and restart on the other side.  Yellow when required to give mark-room, cannot sensibly gain tactical advantage during that 'pause'.  What's to stop her luffing Blue all the way to the edge of the zone, before gybing and claiming the same?!

No.  Blue is entitled to mark-room to sail to the mark.  Yellow should 'pause' her tactical game and yield the space.



Good chat folks.

Thanks for the responses guys,

 

Dave Taylor, you asked “what is mark room course of straight to the mark.”

 

WS Case 75 is a case where the inside boat at a downwind mark sails a bit wide of the straight to the mark course but is OK as an inside right of way boat. The case states the following :

 

“The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side.”

 

The appeal committee, I think, stated that definition to show that when the inside boat sailed a looping course outside the corridor, they were no longer protected by mark room but had to rely on the right of way rules and subject to 16.1.

 

I think the direct corridor comes from the fact that the boat with room must act promptly to take that room so anything off a straight line is really not prompt.

 

Regarding John and Benjamin’s comments about proper course, I think the right to sail a proper course is not part of the definition of mark room so I don’t understand your comments using proper course.  Furthermore a straight course to the mark is unlikely to be blue’s proper course. In most cases a leeward mark rounding proper course is wide out and close in so in this case I would say blues proper course would be to sail to the right for a rounding of the left mark.  She would have to be the right of way boat to do that.

 

Benjamin - I’ve got into the habit this season of calling the zone myself, both for and against myself; turning to the other boats and going, “Zone, clear ahead/I have room/you have room, agreed?” I find it’s working to get the message out and it does pre-empt a lot of strife. 

As for the rest - well, a man can dream, you know?