Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Rule 55 and technical committee

P
Stavros Kouris
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
Rule 60.4 indicates that a technical committee shall protest a boat if decides that
 - a boat has broken a rule of Part 4, but not rules 41, 42, 44 and 46.
Since rule 55 (Trash disposal) is not one of the rules mentioned in the exceptions above, a technical committee is obliged to protest a boat that has broken this rule, contrary to the other committees, who they may protest a boat under this rule.

Is there any obvious reason for this controversy in the rules? 
Created: 19-Aug-15 12:27

Comments

Willii Gohl
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
Stavros, there is the same problem withh RRS 49.2.
They simply forgot to delete the "shall", when they made the TC a committee of its own.
To my knowledge, this will be changed in the next edition of the RRS.
This is the draft:
"60.4 A technical committee may
(a) protest a boat, but not as a result of information arising from a request for redress or an invalid protest, or from a report from a person with a conflict of interest other than the representative of the boat herself. However, it shall protest a boat if it decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules or with rule 43;
(1) a boat has broken a rule of Part 4, but not rules 41, 42, 44 and 46, or
(2) a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules;
(b) request redress for a boat; or
(c) report to the protest committee requesting action under rule 69.2(b)."

However, I don´t think that this draft solves all problems, as there is still the "shall".
Think about some class rules, like J 70, J24, as they have changes of RRS 49.2. The TC "shall" protest, and the judges on the water "may" protest?
Some people did not think to the very end, or got advice from the wrong people.
Willii
Created: 19-Aug-15 15:31
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Willi, I think the shall now only applies to RRS 43.  This is from the latest 2021 RRS draft ..(notice the "shall" only applies to "(a)")

60.4A technical committee may

  • (a)protest a boat, but not as a result of information arising from a request for redress or an invalid protest, or from a report from a person with a conflict of interest other than the representative of the boat herself. However, it shall protest a boat if it decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules or with rule 43;
  • (b)request redress for a boat; or
  • (c)report to the protest committee requesting action under rule 69.2(b).

To your point about the Class Rules, I don't have a problem with how it's written.  It seems to me the intent is that a TC can't knowingly look away.  If they "decide" that there is an issue with the boat/equipment meeting CR's, they can't act like a jury themselves.  If the TC hasn't decided that a CR or 43 is broken, then they are not obligated to protest.

PS .. some CR's allow the Class President or Committee to provide special dispensation for boats/equipment out of CR spec's.  We have this at our local level, but those allowances are then out in the open and done through a process, which is different from a TC not following through with issues they have decided on.
Created: 19-Aug-15 15:50
Willii Gohl
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
Sorry Angelo, I disagree. The wording is: " shall protest" a boat (which is the boat and the crew) when "either...or" is borken, a class rule or RRS 43. And this is within (a).
The 
Created: 19-Aug-15 17:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Willii, we are in agreement (I think you can see what I meant later in the discussion of my previous post).  The "shall" applies to CR's and only RRS 43.  When I wrote "only" I meant it in the context that RRS 43 is the only RRS now covered by "shall". 
Created: 19-Aug-15 18:23
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
I also have a little trouble with "shall protest if it decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules or with rule 43." If the TC has already decided, what's the hearing for? If the TC is empowered to decide (based on some sort of due process, presumably) that a rule was broken then TC should be empowered to levy a penalty.

Seems to me that it should read "shall (or may, either would be fine for me) protest if it believes...etc". That leaves it up to the Protest Committee to have a hearing, find facts and render a decision.
Created: 19-Aug-17 04:05
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Tim Hohmann
said Created: Sat 04:05

I also have a little trouble with "shall protest if it decides that a boat or personal equipment does not comply with the class rules or with rule 43."
...
Seems to me that it should read "shall (or may, either would be fine for me) protest if it believes...etc". That leaves it up to the Protest Committee to have a hearing, find facts and render a decision.

2013 rules, with reference to equipment inspectors and measurers, rule 43.1c used the word 'believes', rule 78.3 used the word 'decides'.

These rules were 'stepping stones' from the individual opinion of an equipment inspector or measurer, to the race committee and then, through 2013 rule 60.2, to a mandatory protest hearing.

Note that rule 43.1c was even softer, it referred to 'When an equipment inspector or measurer ...  believes a  competitor may have broken ...'

The 2017 rules introduced a Technical Committee with its own power to protest boats, and carried over a mechanism for mandatory protests.

It's difficult to tell when a committee 'believes' something:  it's quite easy to tell when it 'decides' something.

I understand where you are coming from, but I think that moving to 'belief' would not be a good idea.

If the TC has already decided, what's the hearing for? If the TC is empowered to decide (based on some sort of due process, presumably) that a rule was broken then TC should be empowered to levy a penalty.

A protest hearing is necessary because rule 63.1 provides that unless the rules otherwise provide a boat shall not be penalised without a protest hearing,

There are special considerations that a protest has to have in respect of measurement protests shown in rule 64.3.  These recognise that measurers and equipment inspectors sometimes make mistakes in the interpretation and application of equipment and measurement rules (even teams of measurers at an event can share a common mistake), and that there are certain 'judgement' considerations that are best exercised by a protest committee.

We should be very careful about natural justice or due process considerations arising when boats are penalised without a hearing.

Secondly, measurement or equipment rules breaches often carry an implication of intentional cheating, and it's far safer to start processes that may lead to rule 2 or rule 69 action under the hand of the protest committee.
Created: 19-Aug-21 23:29
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John A

These recognise that measurers and equipment inspectors sometimes make mistakes in the interpretation and application of equipment and measurement rules (even teams of measurers at an event can share a common mistake), and that there are certain 'judgement' considerations that are best exercised by a protest committee.

That hits the nail on the head (along with your other points).  

TC’s (we Measurers among them) are not required to protest based on belief, but there is nothing in the rules preventing a TC from doing so (“a TC may protest a boat ...”). A TC would more typically (and more appropriately if possible IMO) initiate an inspection or investigation based upon a belief. Then based upon that info try to determine/decide if a rule is/was broken or not. 

If decided broken, TCs are compelled to protest.  A TC can not ignore a rule break it has decided exists. If the rule break is still in question, a TC can still protest a boat, but it is not compelled to. 

Then in the hands of a PC, the TC makes its case and has an independent body decide if their information is sufficient and their decision correct and then PC decides to penalize or not. 

This is still true in the proposed 2021 quad as well. 
Created: 19-Aug-22 12:23
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