Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Room on top mark (stb rounding) to sail proper course

Drew Scott
Nationality: South Africa
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Hello Im new to this forum so forgive me if this has been covered already. At our club we often have a stb rounding on the top mark (topographical reasons). A scenario that repeats itself is 2 boats entering on stb tack and the front one tacks to round the mark and head down wind. In so doing the trailing boat on stb has to avoid contact with transom and bears off behind transom before tacking and bearing away. I thought this would be a straight forward port stb scenario but the guy in front often says he is sailing proper course or 'I have rights as you where not overlapped on entering the zone'. Love to hear the official response to this scenario
Created: 25-Jan-24 07:48

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Greg Wilkins
Nationality: Australia
It is a straight forward port starboard as Rule 18 does not apply to boats on opposite tacks.
Proper course does not come into Rule 18 at all. 

The "guy in front" is not really in front from a race point of view.  If there was no mark there, then he could not tack and clear you, so you are in a controlling position in open water and the rules try to preserve that at a mark.  You could take him as far away from the mark as you like.  Nothing in mark room allows a boat to tack in front of you like that.
Created: 25-Jan-24 08:26
Chris Watts
Hi,
Just to add to the above. 
The boat in front I guess is clear ahead for a starboard rounding upon entering the mark zone and therefore is entitled to mark room 18.2a(2) right up to the point where she passes head to wind as she rounds the mark. At this point rule 18.2(a) turns off (18.2(b)) and she is tacking and becomes the keep clear boat (rule13). 
If she stands on and leaves you room to tack inside and she tacks to windward of you, during the tack she is again keep clear (rule 13) simultaneous tack) and upon becoming close hauled she must keep clear as the windward boat (11). 
If the boat in front wants to keep control, she can luff round the mark as far as head to wind, but no further, forcing you to take avoiding action and not break rule 12. Then she completes her tack, retaining her lead..
Created: 25-Jan-24 10:35
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Michael Butterfield
The rule mfy be different for match racing  where mark room refers to proper course. 
Created: 25-Jan-24 13:17
Kett Cummins
This is an interesting example, because there is logic and order in always respecting the simplest of sailing rules: port yields to starboard.

A corollary to this scenario is a downwind rounding.  A & B are on starboard gybe sailing downwind to a mark to be left to port  Both must eventually gybe to round the mark.  A is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, but her line is a couple of boat lengths to windward of B's line.  When A can gybe and lay the mark, she gybes to port, across B's line, and hails B for room.  B is still on starboard, but must now heat up to avoid A and pass astern until she has a line to gybe to the mark as well.

This seems very similar to the upwind starboard rounding scenario.  Why is it treated differently???  Hasn't B done well to secure the more leeward line approaching the mark???  Why is A considered the 'guy in front' when sailing downwind but not when sailing upwind???

Kett
Created: 25-Jan-24 13:25
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Michael Butterfield
Becuse upwind you loose the right to mark room when you pass head to wind. This does not apply to the gybe downwind

Created: 25-Jan-24 13:28
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Welcome Drew .. and thank you for giving us your first post!  Before I start, please understand that we can't provide "official" responses (though .. I guess one could argue that many of us are "race officials" .. so well .. anyway). 

There are several variables that could change the answers to your scenario.  Below is what you stated .. 

"2 boats entering on stb tack and the front one tacks to round the mark and head down wind."

The orientation of these 2 boats can effect greatly how this scenario plays out.  You say "the front one".  Do you mean to indicate that one boat is "clear ahead" of the other, or are they overlapped with one's bow in front of the other?

Here are 3 variations on your general scenario to consider (comments and corrections welcome), with differing orientations of the boats. In all cases, assume the orientation of the boats at position 1 was the same when the first of them enters the zone.

Scenario's #1 and #3 are pretty straight forward:

Scenario #1
  1. Yellow enters the zone clear ahead and is entitled to MR from Blue under 18.2(a)(2).  
  2. Yellow is also ROW under RRS 12 as she is clear ahead.  
  3. Yellow alters course between #2 and #3 to windward to round and before she reaches HTW at #3, Blue alters course to avoid Yellow.  There is no contact.
  4. No rule broken.

Scenario #3
  1. Pink enters the zone ahead and inside overlapped with Olive and is entitled to MR under 18.2(a)(1)
  2. Pink is windward of Olive, therefore Pink must keep clear of Olive under RRS 11
  3. Pink alters course to windward between #2 and #3 to round and before she reaches HTW, Olive alters course to avoid Pink.  There is no contact.
  4. Pink breaks RRS 11 for not keeping clear of Olive, a ROW boat, but is exonerated under RRS 43.1(b) because Pink is sailing within the MR she is entitled to.
  5. No penalty.

Scenario #2 (can be a little more complicated ... I'll show an alternate #2A below)
  1. Green enters the zone clear ahead and is entitled to MR from Red under 18.2(a)(2).  
  2. Green is also ROW under RRS 12 as she is clear ahead.  
  3. Green alters course between #2 and #3 to windward to round.  Green's ROW switches from RRS 12 to RRS 11.
  4. Green passes HTW after #3, becoming a keep-clear boat to Red under RRS 13.
  5. Green's MR turns off when she passes HTW under 18.1(a)(1) and 18.2(b)
  6. Red became ROW not by her actions, so RRS 15 does not apply to her.
  7. Red, a ROW boat, alters course to avoid Green after #3.  There is no contact.
  8. Green breaks RRS 13 when she was neither a ROW boat or entitled to room or mark-room and therefore is not exonerated.
  9. DSQ Green.



Scenario 2A (Green's risky defense, hold HTW course)
  1. Green enters the zone clear ahead and is entitled to MR from Red under 18.2(a)(2).  
  2. Green is also ROW under RRS 12 as she is clear ahead.  
  3. Green alters course between #2 and #3 to windward to round.  Green's ROW switches from RRS 12 to RRS 11.
  4. Green holds her HTW course after #3, maintaining her ROW under RRS 11 and her MR under the last sentence of 18.2(a)(2).
  5. Red alters course to avoid Green after #3 and makes contact with the mark at #4.
  6. Red must keep clear of Green under RRS 11 and not touch the mark under RRS 31
    1. IMO, between #2-#3 (as drawn), Red has opportunity to do both but delays her turn until after her bow in between the mark and green and therefore was not compelled to touch the mark.
    2. Red breaks RRS 31 and is not exonerated by RRS 43.1(a).
  7. This now comes down to whether or not Red's contact with the mark causes injury or damage (to Red or the mark) AND whether or not Red was compelled to touch the mark. 
  8. Option A: NO DAMAGE to Red or the mark and Red could have avoided (not compelled to) touching the mark. 
    1. Green breaks 16.1, but is exonerated by 43.1(b) because she is a ROW boat and a boat sailing within the MR she is entitled to.
    2. Green does not breaks 14(c), because Red could have avoided the mark and thus Green doesn't "cause" the contact between Red and the mark. 
    3. DSQ Red
  9. Option B: DAMAGE to Red or the mark and red could not avoid mark (assume Red gained more overlap with Green inside the zone and was thus more forward on Green).
    1. same as 7 above, but Green causes the contact between Red and the mark and breaks 14(c). 
    2. Green is exonerated for 16.1 but not 14(c).
    3. DSQ  Green, Red is exonerated for breaking RRS 13 under 43.1(a). 
    4. [from Boris comment below] DSQ Red for breaking RRS 18.2 (Green have not space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 (see DEFINITION Room))

Created: 25-Jan-24 13:39
Kett Cummins
Michael,

Haha!!!  But I'm asking WHY that is?  WHY is there a distinction between upwind and downwind?  What's the logic?

Kett
Created: 25-Jan-24 14:08
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Michael Butterfield
For safety. Also because a tack is different to a gybe. With tacking you have a dead zone of 90 degrees, there is no dead zone downwind. You can for instance be downwind heading for the mark on either tack on the same course. 
This is not so on a beat. You have the port and the starboard layline.  If you allowed boats on a beat to be overlaapped with the inside having rights at the mark,  the now port tack boats we discourage would have mark room, and the starboard boats, on a port mark, have to gice the rooom carnage. Is just outside the zone on port suddenly no mark room,  and th e potential for collissions
Created: 25-Jan-24 17:54
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
I wonder if anyone has any comments on my 2A scenario and analysis, in light of the new 2025 14(c)?
Created: 25-Jan-25 03:34
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Drew if in Scenario #2 Red was overlapped with Green at #1 (and when they first entered the zone) then it is Red who is entitled to MR, not Green ... and it becomes basically Scenario #3. 
Created: 25-Jan-25 03:49
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Drew, the critical thing is whether B, the trailing boat changes course to avoid Y before or after Y passes head to wind.

Initially both boats are on the same tack, at least one in the zone, RRS 18 applies.

If B changes course to avoid Y before Y passes head to wind, then it's Angelo's Scenario 1:  B keeps clear and gives mark-room to Y.  No rule broken.

If B changes course to avoid Y after Y passes head to wind then it's Scenario 2.  After Y passes head to wind:
  • boats are on opposite tacks and RRS 18 no longer applies;
  • Y, having passed head to wind and not yet on a close hauled course, is required to keep clear of B 
  • B needs to change course to avoid Y therefore does not keep clear of B and breaks RRS 13.
Created: 25-Jan-25 05:52
Kett Cummins
All - Sorry about the overlapping discussions here, but I do think there is some insight to be gained.

Michael - There is certainly nothing 'safe' about a boat gybing to port right in front of a starboard-tack boat and claiming mark room.  Even less so, since as you say, there is no 'dead zone' in the process of gybing.  One moment you're on starboard, the next moment you're on port, calling for room.  Yikes!

I think you have missed my point.  I am supporting the fact that rule 10 should continue to apply and rule 18 should shut off after a tack.  I get what Greg said about the 'guy in front' maybe being the boat with the best line, not necessarily the boat clear ahead.  My question is why doesn't rule 18 shut off after a gybe, too?  Where is the logic in that?  Again, the 'guy in front' is arguably the one with the better line to the mark (lower downwind, higher upwind), not who is clear ahead.

It's these sorts of inconsistencies that make the RRS so confusing.

Kett
Created: 25-Jan-25 13:57
Boris Kuzminov
Nationality: Israel
Option B: DAMAGE to Red or the mark and red could not avoid mark (assume Red gained more overlap with Green inside the zone and was thus more forward on Green).
  1. same as 7 above, but Green causes the contact between Red and the mark and breaks 14(c). 
  2. Green is exonerated for 16.1 but not 14(c).
  3. DSQ  Green, Red is exonerated for breaking RRS 31 under 43.1(a). 
 4. DSQ Red for breaking RRS 18.2 (Green have not space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 (see DEFINITION Room)) ?
Created: 25-Jan-26 14:53
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Greg Wilkins
Nationality: Australia
Kett,

IMHO

Because there is a "dead zone" when tacking, there are a lot of positions where a boat clear ahead cannot tack and cross a boat clear behind. 

Whilst such situations do exist downwind, especially with asymmetric sailed boats, it is much less so. Downwind, a boat clear ahead can often gybe and cross the boat clear behind because they can sail deep... although issues like wind shadows can make the full cross difficult, but the boat behind is still the keep clear boat. 

So I think it is just more often the case downwind, that the boat clear ahead is in the better position in the race even when rounding a mark, whilst upwind there are some significant situations where that is not true when rounding a mark.

Also, downwind, boats can sail by the lee, so they can technically be on one board, whilst sailing a course more commonly associated with the other.  So rules to handle that in the zone would be very difficult and even more confusing.

At least that's why I think the rules are written as they are.

cheers






Created: 25-Jan-27 07:50
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Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
I agree with Greg W that this is a simple P/S situation. This situation is incredibly common in teams racing, as there are regularly starboard roundings and boats are incentivized to hunt in these scenarios. The tactical solution is not well represented in any of the diagrams I have seen yet on this page.

The solution is to use the mark as a "pick" as in basketball. Avoid crossing onto port until you're at a point where the other starboard boat can ONLY get to you by changing course. At that point 16.1 applies and the boat still on starboard owes room to keep clear if she changes course. Teams Racing call e3 (p44) is illustrative.
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Created: 25-Jan-27 19:51
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Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
Responding to the question: "How would rule 14(c) apply to the front boat luffing HTW at the mark and causing a pileup of boats behind?"
  1. I don't think the diagrams show a boat "luffing HTW", I think they generally show boats tacking. The only example that shows a boat luffing HTW is below, and 14c has already been discussed at length.
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  2. It is my opinion that a boat slowing doesn't "cause" a pileup any more than a car braking "causes" a pileup. The pileup is caused by give-way boats (or cars) not leaving sufficient room for themselves to maneuver. This is even more true in a mark-room scenario, where 16.1 has limited application due to the presumed "corridor" to the mark.
  3. My two scenarios above are intended to present ways the lead/ROW boat can get around the mark without causing any pileup or even much slow-down. The issues become when she fouls another starboard boat who then needs to maneuver suddenly to avoid... that's when the pileups happen.
Created: 25-Jan-31 17:25
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