Andrew Wise

- Club Race Officer

Can someone advise on how to interpret RRS 44.3(c) - how to apply a scoring penalty (especially when using something other than the standard Appendix A low points system)

RRS 44.3(c) states

RRS 44.3(c) states

> ....the penalty shall be 20% of the score for Did Not *Finish*, rounded to the nearest whole number ...

We (East Anglian Offshore Racing Association - EAORA) run our racing using the older "Bonus Points System" where the points awarded are 0 for first, 3 for second, 5.7 for third etc....

In a race with 23 starters the DNF score is 30 ... so 20% of the DNF score is 6 (It would be 4.8, rounded to 5 using the low points system)

The question is does an infringing competitor loose 6 place or do they have 6 points added to their score? Is the penalty calculated a number of places or a score adjustment?

RRS 44.3(c) states "*When the sailing instructions do not state the number of places, the penalty shall be 20% of the score for Did Not Finish, rounded to the nearest whole number (0.5 rounded upward). The scores of other boats shall not be changed; therefore, two boats may receive the same score. However, the penalty shall not cause the boat’s score to be worse than the score for Did Not Finish.*"

In a race with 23 starters the DNF score is 30 ... so 20% of the DNF score is 6 (It would be 4.8, rounded to 5 using the low points system)

The question is does an infringing competitor loose 6 place or do they have 6 points added to their score? Is the penalty calculated a number of places or a score adjustment?

RRS 44.3(c) states "

This implies to me its the score of the infringing boat that's adjusted not their finishing position - reinforced by the second part of the sentence which says the scores of other boats are not changed .... so it seems to me its all about changing the score.

Under the Low Points System don't think it matters as the scores and the places are the same - but under any other scoring system they may not be.

Any advice would be welcome please :-)

Andy

PRO for EAORA

Under the Low Points System don't think it matters as the scores and the places are the same - but under any other scoring system they may not be.

Any advice would be welcome please :-)

Andy

PRO for EAORA

[You must be signed in to add a comment]

Nationality:CanadaCertifications:The first paragraph of RRS 44.3(c) (The race score for a boat that takes a Scoring Penalty shall be the score she would have received without that penalty, made worse by the number of

stated in the notice of race or sailing instructions) states that the score shall be made worse by the number of places. In your case the boat would receive scored points for her original finish place plus 6 places, but not more than the points for a DNF score.placesPeter

Nationality:United KingdomCertifications:I think the scoring penalty was written with the low point scoring system in mind and I think there is a conflict in rule 44.3(c) between 'score' and 'places' when you are not using the low point system.

As you say, in the low point scoring system you can mix 'places' and 'scores' at will and it makes no difference but in the bonus point system using 'places' or 'scores' will result in different penalties.

Perhaps the answer is to state in your SI's what the penalty is and how it will be applied.

Hopefully someone with much more detailed knowledge of scoring can confirm the right way to do it :-)

Nationality:United StatesCertifications:My interpretation would be based on the first sentence where it talks about penalty being "

the number of places" as this is also where the penalty amount is defined. The number of places to penalize the boat by is just a number which is calculated by the rule (20% of the score for DNF), even though you are mixing 'units'.In your situation, I would add 6 places to a boat's finishing place and then use the scoring formula to figure out their score.

Nationality:United KingdomCertifications:As observed, if you interpret the rule as a % of the score that is used to determine places it mixes units.

For us using the Bonus Points System there's just a small anomaly, but for an organisation like RORC that uses a High Points system it create a larger anomaly as a DNF always scores 10 points so the penalty would always be 2 places irrespective of the number of entrants.

I don't know what RORC do in their SIs but I do know they use a Time Penalty (either instead of or in conjunction with a Scoring Penalty) - that must be described in their SIs and would be one way around the problem.

As Pauls says - the scoring penalty was written with the low point scoring system in mind!

Very happy I found this forum :-) - thanks. Its helped me clarify my thinking

Nationality:ItalyCertifications:Say race with 23 starters the DNF score is 30; so 20% of the DNF score is 6 ( in low point system would have been 5)

1) No "number of places" is stated in the SI: A boat that finished in 3rd position, will be penailized 5,7 + 6 = 11,7 Correct?

2) number of places is stated in the SI... an example?

Thanks

Nationality:IrelandCertifications:Many of the French offshore races use a time penalty based on a fixed time multiplied by the length of the race: for instance 30 seconds per 100 miles. Thre is a tarrif for fixed penalties and then other, PC given.penalties are calculated by adapting the discretionary penalty guidelines The system is simple and transparent.

This is fine in a homogenous fleet.However it may need adapting when there are great speed differences. In which case adjustments are made based on the estimated passage time.

Another sysytem, used in Cowes Week I believe, is a small percentage time penalty - 1 or 2%.

The time penalty is added to the race time (cue endless debates as to whether this should be added to elapsed or corrected time) and the boats finishing position is re-calculated. This works well if the scorer consents.

Nationality:United KingdomCertifications:There's a worked example based on the previous rule book at https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/AppA-Guidance-V4-0.pdf but it only provides examples for the Low Point System.

Starting with their Example 1

Example 1: 23 boats entered. Boat A finishes 3rd but is ZFP. The penalty is 20% of 23 = 4.6 places, rounded to 5 places so she receives points for the place equal to her finishing place of 3rd plus 5 penalty places or 8th place. Under the Low Point System, 8th place receives 8 points so points for the race are: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 9, 10 ... 23. The two boats scoring 8 points will share any race prize for 7th place; the boat scoring 9 points will receive any race prize for 9th place.(NB: Actually I think this example has an inaccuracy as it should say "

The penalty is 20% of24= 4.8 places"however as its rounded up to 5 that doesn't matter. )If we do the same on the Bonus Points System and interpret it as most commentators have suggested

Example X: 23 boats entered. Boat A finishes 3rd but is ZFP. The penalty is 20% of 30 = 6 places, so she receives points for the place equal to her finishing place of 3rd plus 6 penalty places or 9th place. Under the Bonus Point System, 9th place receives 15 points so points for the race are: 0, 3,~~5.7~~, 8, 10, 11.7, 13, 14, 15, 15, 16 ... 29. The two boats scoring 15 points will share any race prize for 8th place; the boat scoring 16 points will receive any race prize for 10th place.I think the key to understanding & resolving this is to be explicit in the NoR or SI, especially if you are not using the Low Points System - The rule does say in the first paragraph "The race score for a boat that takes a Scoring Penalty shall be the score she would have received without that penalty, made worse by the number of

" before it goes on to define a calculation if there's nothing else defined.places stated in the notice of race or sailing instructionsIts inviting us to refine the rule the race documents - no doubt as appropriate to the type of racing (in much the same way as the number of discards is defaulted in the rules but ideally should be explicit in the NoR / SI)

Once again - thanks to all contributors for helping clarify my thinking!

Nationality:United KingdomCertifications:Before responding I went to the NOR and it states under scoring

15.5. Did Not Finish - yachts classified as DNF, DNS or retired after finishing (RTD) shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of yachts that started the race. To be recorded as Did Not Start (DNS) the yacht shall have complied with section 8. Otherwise the yacht will be recorded as Did Not Compete (DNC).

If you had 23 yachts starting should the DNF score be 24 not 30? How is the 30 calculated?

Answering your question I could not see in any of the documents where places have been stated, so the penalty is 20% of the score, so 20%% of 24 rounded to 5 points, added. But by adding that score you should not increase the boat score to more than 24. That's my reading

Nationality:United KingdomCertifications:We use the Bonus Points System not the Low Points System (15.1, 15.2) so the points for the finishing place for 24th are 30. They would indeed be 24 under the Low Points System.

And you don't add 5 (or 6) to the score you add 5 (or 6) to the places & then score the boat on that placement. At least that is what I have learned from the other comments in this thread. Under Low Points the score and place are interchangeable - but not under the Bonus Points or High Points system.

But the overarching point is I need to define our interpretation clearly in the NoR or SI - as the rule says "When the sailing instructions do not state the number of places, the penalty shall be ..." So we can avoid any complication by stating the number of places (or an alternate calculaiton)

Andy

Nationality:IrelandCertifications:15.5. Did Not Finish - yachts classified as DNF, DNS or retired after finishing (RTD) shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of yachts that started the race.RRS 44.3(c) states that the penalty shall be 20% of the score for Did Not Finish unless there is something different stated in the NoR or SI (please read the whole of rule 44.3(c)!).

If the last boat to finish scored 30 points then a boat that is DNF would be scored 31 points. So the the 20% penalty would be 6.2, rounded to 6 POINTS.

This penalty should be added to the points scored under the Bonus Points system based on the boat's finishing place. The scores of other boats shall not be changed (RRS44.3(c)) so two boats lay have the race score.

So in this race a boat that finishing 3 then taking a penalty would score 5.7 points + 6 = 11.7.

This discussion would not arise if 44.3(c) were clearer by stating 'made worse by the number of

pointsstated in the NoR or SIs. When the number ofpointsis not stated...'G