Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Starboard rounding of windward mark

Dave Borrett
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Two boats approaching the windward mark, to be rounded to starboard. Both closehauled on starboard, both boats laying the mark, boat astern has a overlap (just) to windward, with the lead boat pointing high/pinching to slow the trailing boat.
What rights do either boat have as they get to the three length circle/windward mark?
I can't find anything obvious to clarify who has rights in this situation? What rules cover this situation?

Created: 22-Jul-04 12:07

Comments

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
What u do Dave is step thru the rules of Part 2 front to back.

Section A: Who has ROW and under which rule?
Section B: Is either boat limited? (How was the leeward boat’s overlap initially established?)
Section C: Does Rule 18 apply?  If not, why not?  If so, who get’s mark room?

Each one of these sections will tell part of the story and answers from each section can coexist with each other to form a narrative (unless the rule itself specifically turns them off). 
Created: 22-Jul-04 12:14
Thorsten Doebbeler
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
0
Ang, maybe you should point out that the definition Mark-Room  is also worth reading here, even if referenced to by the rules in question.
Created: 22-Jul-04 12:18
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Thorsten …. Yes .. of course … we need to ref the definitions used in the rules too. Thanks for that addition. 

Dave, there are plenty of folk here who can just tell u the answer, but we can also guide you in learning how to find the answer yourself.

Why don’t you give it a try … step through the rules in the Sections of Part 2 and let’s start there and see how you do. 
  • Who has ROW?  
  • Is either boat limited by Section B? 
  • Does 18 apply and if so, who gets mark room?
  • If someone gets mark-room, what does that mean?
Created: 22-Jul-04 12:30
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
1
Hi Dave,
From your description, it would seem that, as both boats are on starboard tack, approaching a mark to be left to starboard, that neither boat is laying the mark as both will have to tack to port to round the mark.

Murray
Created: 22-Jul-04 12:31
Dave Borrett
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
0
Angelo/Thorsten
The lead boat (A) definitely has right of way over the trailing boat (B) while both boats are outside the mark zone under rule 11 - windward keeps clear of leeward - the overlap had been in place for several minutes as both boats approached the mark.
I can't see any limitations from section B as the overlap had been established for several minutes with boat B always being astern and to windward.
It does look as though rule 18.2b applies - and therefore boat A should give room, although as soon as boat B tacks onto port to round the mark (passes head to wind) boat A no longer is obliged to give mark room (18.2d).
So, accepting that boat A should give room at the mark, when the overlap is minimal (perhaps 12inches at most), in reality how much room is room? Do the rules effectively mean that boat A cannot tack onto port to pass the mark and bear-off onto the next broad reach until boat B has tacked onto port (passed beyond head to wind) to pass the mark?

Created: 22-Jul-04 13:41
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
Angelo, I wish everyone would indeed use the route map you write.

1. ROW - R11 applies - windward Keep Clear
2. Limitations -
2.1 Windward had been KC (assuming the implied overlap gained from astern) R12 Clear Astern Keep Clear. ROW persists as R11 when overlap is established. No new ROW so Limitation R15 does not apply.
2.2 Did Leeward change course (e.g. luff towards htw) without giving Windward Room to Keep Clear - Limitation Rule R16.1? If he did, had Windward, as Keep Clear, given sufficient Room according to definition "Keep Clear" ("wiggle room")?
3. Mark Room -
3.1 Did Windward gain overlap before the Zone (3 boat lengths or 4 boat lengths per Appendix E for RC yachts). If "Yes" then from the zone on, the Leeward must give the Windward Mark Room - R 18.2(b) - unless R18.2(e) applies - and it might since the word "(just)" is declared. But note, Mark Room gives Windward Room to tack (so long as overlap was established at the Zone), but NOT Room to make a tactical rounding (since she is still KC) so Windward must sail close to the Mark and generally abide by the definition of Mark Room and her obligations as KC.

Inside the Zone, with boats overlapping, there are a bunch of other rules come into effect. But, remember, Mark Room does NOT give Right of Way which is determined only (except for some penalty type rules) by Part 2 Section A rules. For example, Windward may tack and be given Room to tack round the Mark, since the overlap had been established at the zone. 
Created: 22-Jul-04 13:58
Tom Sollas
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
The sequence looks something like this:
  1. Approaching with W and L on starboard and overlapped, RRS 11 applies.
  2. For the sake of argument, let’s assume the boats enter the zone on S while approaching the mark.
  3. Once L (being ahead) reaches the zone, 18 applies (RRS 18.1). At this point, L is required to give W room.
  4. At the lay line, given the overlap, L can’t tack without breaking 13 and 16, so W tacks first. Once W passes head to wind, W becomes give way (RRS 13), and 18.2 b) and c) turn off (RRS 18.2d).
  5. P completes her tack and L follows (being give way while she passes head to wind and before she reaches close hauled). Assuming L tacks behind W, she’ll likely be clear astern and subject to RRS 12 as the overtaking boat.
  6. The fun starts here. Since boat boats are now on the same tack, 18 applies once again. Because the mark is to be rounded to starboard, 18.3 doesn’t apply. Because the of the tacks inside the zone, 18.2 b) and c) also don’t apply.
  7. This means if L obtains a new overlap to leeward, then 18.2 a) applies, and she’s entitled to mark room (RRS 18.2a), however, only if W was able to give her room in the first place (RRS 18.2f).
  8. Alternatively, if L became overlapped to windward of W after her tack, she’s required to give W room, again. RRS 18.2 a) applies here.

It’s not that much different from a port rounding, though simpler in that there’s no 18.3 to contend with in the sequence.
Created: 22-Jul-04 14:23
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Dave, not taking anything away from Tom’s description, just a opinion or 2 on your write-up.  

“I can't see any limitations from section B as the overlap had been established for several minutes with boat B always being astern and to windward.”

In your OP you described the forward, leeward boat pinching to slow the boat behind.   You are correct that Leeward is ROW, so RRS 16 (section B) will limit how leeward luffs to windward.  She must give W room to keep clear as she changes course. 

Even once inside the zone, and given her position well forward/leeward, L doesn’t have to be worried about leaving room for W’s stern to swing when W tacks.  L can continue pinching/luffing under RRS 16 as long as L leaves W room to pass the mark to STB. 

Also, the time the overlap existed is less important than how it was created. If L drove through the lee of W within 2 BL’s and got ahead of W, then 17 will apply. If it did, then L can “pinch” (slower/higher steady course) but arguably not “luff” W. 

“So, accepting that boat A should give room at the mark, when the overlap is minimal (perhaps 12inches at most), in reality how much room is room?”

Mark-Room
Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b) room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark. 
However, mark-room for a boat does not include roomto tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

So in this case, L needs to leave W room to leave the mark on it’s proper side and room to tack. But as I mentioned before, given their orientation, L’s position isn’t impeding W’s room to tack. 
Created: 22-Jul-04 15:52
P
Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
1
I wonder if the TR A6 would not answer the question. Change the 2 BTL to 3, but the principle is still there.
It basically asks the question: When is the last the L boat can luff.
image.png 5.65 KB


Answer 1
Rule 18 begins to apply when any part of the hull of either boat is in the zone. From
this moment, if B luffs and thereafter has to bear away in order to give Y mark-room,
then B breaks rule 18.2. B does not break rule 18.2 if she is able to luff while giving Y
room to sail to the mark as required by paragraph (a) in the definition Mark-Room. Y
is required to keep clear under rule 11. However, she will be exonerated under rule
43.1(b) if she breaks rule 11 because B fails to give her mark-room.
Question 2
If B has to bear away to give mark-room, when is she required to do so?
Answer 2
B is required to bear away promptly when the first of the boats enters the zone.

The rounding part (what happens when boats tack) is another part, but that was not part of the question.

Kim
Created: 22-Jul-06 02:35
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