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Recent Posts
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25 CommentsPJohn Allan, Thu 10:54
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2 CommentsPJohn Quirk, Tue 09:12
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20 CommentsPBenjamin Harding, Tue 09:12
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23 CommentsNiko Kotsatos, Mon 18:06
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26 CommentsCatalan Benaros, 26-Jul-02 02:06
Recent Comments
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NIko Which rule (if any) makes it illegal to help wing the jib with a boom crutch or other stick, and in this specific situation, does RRS 55.3 apply?
Yes, it's RRS 55.3.To wing the sail out by exerting outward pressure on the sheet or clew in accordance with RRS 55.3, you need a whisker pole that is connected to the sail or sheet and attached to the mast. (ERS Definition Whisker Pole. (Side note: According to the ERS, if a Spinnaker Pole is connected to a headsail clew instead of a spinnaker, it becomes a Whisker Pole).The boat/class in question has a jib boom, so the winging would not need to control the sheets specifically, and could simply push on the boom or the sail itself.
If the sail is connected to a jib boom in accordance with RRS 55.3(c), and there is some device that is pushing the boom out to windward, the outward pressure is being exerted by the boom, not the device pushing the boom and it will not break RRS 55.3. Note also that the device pushing on the jib boom may be wholly inside the sheerline. See Hoyt jib boom.... [Is] it illegal to help wing the jib with a boom crutch or other stick?
If the outward pressure is being exerted on the sheet or clew of the sail, the spar or stick must be a Whisker Pole, that is it must be connected to the headsail clew and attached to the mast.
Attached means more than connected.
An old fashioned jib stick with a pointed end engaging with a cringle in the jib clew is connected.
I think a notch in the end of the spar (like a boom crutch, or paddle, intended to engage the sheet and contact the clew would be 'connected' (just),
attached to the mast is a far harder test.I think a workable test would be, 'if no force was exerted on it, would it fall off?'
So if you had a boom crutch like this with a pointy end to engage the clew,
The jaws could fit around the mast, but without the sail pushing back on the jaws, the stick would fall off the mast, so it would not be attached.
If you had a boom crutch like this
The jaws could clip around the mast and hang on without assistance, so it would be attached.
you could fix the problem with the first example with a cheesy little lanyard to go around the mast.
If you had a class rule that said 'Crew may use a spar such as a boom crutch ... to hold out a jib sheet while sailing downwind' this could change the requirements of RRS 55.3, but the class rules had better include the magic words 'this changes RRS 55.3' to be valid.John Allan Today 05:05 -
Don't you love AI.
Here, I have asked AI to cross reference appendix J items. My aim is to identify information which is required to be contained in both documents. Such information could be a source of conflict.
As you can see, the areas of overlap are few... well, if any. The different purposes of the two documents are quite specific, and where information may be included in either, the App. J guidance specifically requires that it be omitted in the SIs if already included in the NOR.
The Appendix J preamble sums it up...
"Care should be taken to ensure that there is no conflict between rules in the notice of race, the sailing instructions or any other document that governs the event."
Duh!
Thus, there is very little need for any 'SI takes precedence' clause.
In the unlikely event of a conflict or an error or intended change in either document, I think the current requirements of RRS 65.3, 89.2(b) 90.2(e) are fine. Fix/Amend the document with the error/intended change. That way, it is clear and simple for competitors. No hidden changes or corrections or updates. Or if it really gets to that stage in a hearing, find the fairest resolution to a conflict. Then continue.
My original thoughts are solidified. Follow the guidance = no need for precedence.
Good chat.. .thanks!APPENDIX J CROSS-REFERENCE NOTICE OF RACE AND SAILING INSTRUCTIONS Legend: X = included in that section X if applies = included only if applicable Via J2.1(1) = included in Sailing Instructions unless already included in Notice of Race Blank = not listed in that section Columns: J1.1 = Notice of Race shall include J1.2 = Notice of Race shall include if it applies J1.3 = Notice of Race shall include if it applies / helpful before Sailing Instructions are available J2.1 = Sailing Instructions shall include unless included in Notice of Race J2.2 = Sailing Instructions shall include if it applies unless included in Notice of Race Item / Point | J1.1 | J1.2 | J1.3 | J2.1 | J2.2 -------------------------------------------------------------------|------|--------------|--------------|----------------------|-------------- Title, place and dates of event; organizing authority | X | | | | Event governed by rules as defined in RRS | X | | | | Other governing documents and where/how to obtain them | X | | | | Classes to race | X | | | | Handicap or rating system and classes to which it applies | X | | | | Conditions of entry and restrictions on entries | X | | | | Registration or entry procedures, times, fees and closing dates | X | | | | Schedule / warning-signal times | X | | | X | Equipment inspection or event measurement procedures/times | | X if applies | | | Measurement or rating certificate requirements | | X if applies | | | World Sailing-authorized rule changes under rule 86.2 | | X if applies | | | Changes to class rules under rule 87 | | X if applies | | | Sailor categorization requirements | | X if applies | | | Para World Sailing functional classification requirements | | X if applies | | | Advertising chosen and supplied by organizing authority | | X if applies | | | Other advertising information | | X if applies | | | Rule 90.3(e) will apply | | X if applies | | | Change to 24-hour time limit in rule 90.3(e) | | X if applies | | | National prescriptions requiring advance preparation | | X if applies | | | Prescriptions for waters of more than one national authority | | X if applies | | | Alternative communications instead of hails under rule 20 | | X if applies | | | Change to clothing/equipment weight limit under rule 50.1(b) | | X if applies | | | Data-protection compliance requirements | | X if applies | | | Signed entry form agreeing to be bound by governing rules | | X if applies | | | Replacement of Part 2 with IRPCAS/government right-of-way rules | | X if applies | | | Changes to racing rules under rule 86.1 | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Changes to national prescriptions | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Time and place SIs will be available | | | X if applies | | General description of course/type of courses | | | X if applies | | Scoring system | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Number of races scheduled | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Minimum races to constitute a series | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Rule A5.3 applies, if appropriate | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1) | Part 2 penalty other than Two-Turns Penalty | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Last time for warning signal on final scheduled day | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Denial of right of appeal | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Rule G3 for chartered or loaned boats | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Prizes | | | X if applies | Via J2.1(1), if appl.| Complete course description or list of marks | | | | X | How courses will be signalled | | | | X | Change to finishing-line crossing direction | | | | X | Descriptions of marks | | | | X | Order in which marks are to be passed | | | | X | Side on which each mark is to be left | | | | X | Identification of rounding marks | | | | X | Descriptions of starting and finishing lines | | | | X | Class flags | | | | X | Special signals to be used | | | | X | Race time limit for first boat to sail the course | | | | X | Official notice board / online notice board location | | | | X | Race office location | | | | X | Whether Appendix P will apply | | | | | X if applies English copy of applicable national prescriptions | | | | | X if applies Procedure for changing the SIs | | | | | X if applies Procedure for oral changes to SIs on the water | | | | | X if applies Safety requirements | | | | | X if applies Signals ashore and signal-station locations | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on changes to boats supplied by organizing authority | | | | | X if applies Permitted propulsion under rule 42.3(i) | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on support person vessels | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on plastic pools | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on radios, etc. | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on trash disposal | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on hauling out | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on outside assistance to non-racing boat | | | | | X if applies Racing area | | | | | X if applies Starting area location and entry restrictions | | | | | X if applies Special procedures/signals for individual recall | | | | | X if applies Special procedures/signals for general recall | | | | | X if applies Approximate course length | | | | | X if applies Approximate length of windward legs | | | | | X if applies Procedures/signals for changing a leg of the course | | | | | X if applies Objects, areas or lines designated as obstructions | | | | | X if applies Restrictions on entering/crossing obstruction areas or lines | | | | | X if applies Boat identifying-mark locations | | | | | X if applies Procedures for shortening the course | | | | | X if applies Procedures for finishing a shortened course | | | | | X if applies Time limit for boats other than first boat to finish | | | | | X if applies Other time limits or target times while racing | | | | | X if applies Declaration requirements | | | | | X if applies Time allowances | | | | | X if applies Protest time limits | | | | | X if applies Place of hearings | | | | | X if applies Special procedures for protests | | | | | X if applies Special procedures for requests for redress | | | | | X if applies Special procedures for requests for reopening | | | | | X if applies Approval of international jury appointment | | | | | X if applies Time limit for hearing request under rule N1.4(b), if not 30 mins | | | | | X if applies National authority for appeals/requests under rule 70.4 | | | | | X if applies Substitution of competitors | | | | | X if applies Minimum boats in starting area required to start a race | | | | | X if applies When/where postponed or abandoned races will be sailed | | | | | X if applies Tides and currents | | | | | X if applies Other race committee commitments | | | | | X if applies Other obligations of boats | | | | | X if applies NOTES ON OVERLAPS 1. J2.1 begins "Unless included in the notice of race..." Therefore, several items can appear in either the Notice of Race or the Sailing Instructions. They generally do not need to be repeated in both. 2. The main direct overlap is J2.1(1), which requires the Sailing Instructions to include selected J1.3 items unless they are already included in the Notice of Race. 3. J2.1(1) includes the following J1.3 items: - J1.3(1): changes to racing rules under rule 86.1 - J1.3(2): changes to national prescriptions - J1.3(5): scoring system, number of races scheduled, minimum races to constitute a series, and rule A5.3 if appropriate - J1.3(6), when applicable: Part 2 penalty other than the Two-Turns Penalty - J1.3(7), when applicable: last time for a warning signal on the final scheduled day of racing - J1.3(8), when applicable: denial of the right of appeal - J1.3(9), when applicable: whether rule G3 applies for chartered or loaned boats - J1.3(10), when applicable: prizes 4. Schedule / warning-signal times appear in both J1.1 and J2.1: - J1.1(6) requires the Notice of Race to include warning-signal times for the practice race, if one is scheduled, the first race, and succeeding races if known. - J2.1(2) requires the Sailing Instructions to include the schedule of races and warning-signal times for each class, unless already included in the Notice of Race. These are combined in the table as "Schedule / warning-signal times." 5. Course information appears at different levels of detail: - J1.3(4): general description of the course or type of courses. - J2.1(3): complete course description or list of marks, course signalling, and any change to finishing-line crossing direction. - J2.1(4): mark descriptions, order, side to be left, and rounding marks. - J2.1(5): starting and finishing lines, class flags, and special signals. - J2.2(13): approximate course length and approximate windward-leg length. - J2.2(14): procedures or signals for changing a leg of the course. - J2.2(17): procedures for shortening the course or finishing a shortened course. These are kept separate in the table because they serve different purposes. 6. Appeals-related information is split: - J1.3(8): denial of the right of appeal, subject to rule 70.3. - J2.2(24): national authority to which appeals and requests may be sent, when required by rule 70.4. These are kept separate because they address different appeal issues. 7. Chartered, loaned, or supplied boats are split: - J1.3(9): for chartered or loaned boats, whether rule G3 applies. - J2.2(7): restrictions controlling changes to boats when supplied by the organizing authority. These are kept separate because they address different requirements. 8. National-prescription information appears in several places: - J1.2(7): national prescriptions requiring advance preparation when entries from other countries are expected. - J1.2(8): prescriptions applying when boats pass through waters of more than one national authority. - J1.3(2): changes to national prescriptions. - J2.2(2): English copy of applicable national prescriptions at certain international events. These are kept separate because each requirement is different. 9. Time-limit information appears in more than one place: - J2.1(6): race time limit for the first boat to sail the course. - J2.2(18): time limit for boats other than the first boat to finish, plus other time limits or target times while boats are racing. These are kept separate because they apply to different time limits. 10. Notice of Race vs Sailing Instructions: - The Notice of Race mainly contains information competitors need before deciding whether to enter or attend the event. - The Sailing Instructions mainly contain detailed operational information for the conduct of racing.Benjamin Harding Today 03:44 -
Interestingly, I have just researched MLS Rules - The mid-90's American modified 'soccer' rules. It didn't really work.
However, MLS did have a countdown timer as Ang describes as well as some other variations to the traditional game. MLS Penalties were pretty funky.
The MLS rules lasted 4 years.
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In this research, I find that the football rule makers, IFAB, remains institutionally conservative and deliberately resistant to game changes.
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I'm also finding that what I see as poor sportsmanship is, in some places, seen as the art of being street-smart and 'doing whatever it takes to win for your team'. Perhaps all those dives and feigned injuries I saw Columbia doing the other night were heroic... to Columbians. Tactics celebrated as "viveza" or "gamesmanship".
If half the footballing world are happy with that, things will never change.
On-field tactics such as shirt-pulling, heckling the ref, appealing when knowingly last touched, diving and feigning injury will always be worth-a-go. If you can't beat them, join them. Off the field, the unseen underworld will continue to prop up the sport, rightly or wrongly.
I don't think there is a solution coming any time soon.Benjamin Harding Yesterday 16:11 -
Yes John, as I said there were obvious limitations with the selected model (not ideal of course but reflective of the reality of funds availability) – albeit, implemented from the outset on an ‘eyes-wide-open’ basis by all the parties, as I understood.
By ‘senior IJ online support’ if needed, I mean to simply call on an ad hoc basis - where second opinion felt needed to be sought – and to remotely follow things.We have attempted to recruit more JITs here (just myself at present) to no real avail so far but are actively seeking same for the future seasons.Appendix T route was included in the SI’s, for those applicable matters (in fact, it was well engaged in the third regatta) - but is still a bit ‘novel’ for competitors here it would seem (I have also noticed that some IJs are supportive of Arbitration process and others are not).The process of elevating any Appeals was fully understood by all (via MNA etc) – just that none were forthcoming.
That being said, it all seemed to go along quite well 'considering' – from the perspective of MNA, OA (budgets) and competitors etc. I am not sure yet if this model will be selected again or otherwise for the coming National Season4 or a more conventional approach adopted (TBC), and for myself, I will just fit-in again with what is selected by them.John Quirk Yesterday 02:44 -
Is there a reason a finishing window couldn’t be based on the first boats elapsed time plus x%.
I.e. 50% = first boat 60 minutes, last boat 90 minutes, or first boat 120 minutes, last boat 180 minutes.
The % could be chosen based on the handicap spread of the division - tighter fleet, smaller %, wider fleet = bigger %.
I think this would solve an issue for my club. We currently only have a time limit of 2 hours for 1st then 3 hours for last. Our winter series can be either cans or harbour courses. The 2-3 hours is really for the longer harbour courses. We’ve had short cans courses lately due to light winds. The first boat has taken 40 minutes, the rest of the fleet done by 50, but one boat who should be mid fleet is off the pace, and took 100 minutes. Wore a bit thin with the start boat, who then got back in the dark, which then delayed prize giving for everyone else, but didn’t break the time limit rule. However, a 30 minute window wouldn’t be big enough on a 2 hour race, but 1 hour is excessive on a 30 minute race (we had one race which only took 20-30 minutes) . Can it be flexible as suggested? Or must we resort to the complicated (for or RO’s) formula / app to calculate? I can’t see anything in the rules.Matt Michel Wed 08:53
