IMO … your spin is going thru 2 “spars”, one would be classified as a spinpole, but the other (your sprit)  is acting as a “…  device that exerts outward pressure on a sheet or clew of a sail at a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the hull or deck, “ … which would break RRS 55.3

What you are doing is basically no different than flying an asymm tacked off a spinnaker pole. What is ambiguous or can be misinterpreted about your description is how you are using the lazy spin sheet. It sounds like you are removing the lazy sheet from the clew and re-deploying it as a guy, and using your asymm tackline like a foreguy. Is that right? If so, you're not breaking any racing rule (unless your class prohibits that, or your handicap rule hasn't rated you to do that). By the way, why not keep the lazy sheet attached to the clew so you can gybe, and use another line as a guy to hold the pole-end in position? What are you using as a topping lift on the spin pole?? 

Tim re: “What you are doing is basically no different than flying an asymm tacked off a spinnaker pole. ”

Sounds like to me that he’s got the sheet/clew going thru the sprit. If he has it rigged such that the sprit can/is imparting any outward pressure on the sheet/clew, it breaks 55.3.  

Many sprits even when fully retracted, extend slightly beyond the shear line, thus “…outside of the hull or deck.”

Angelo, i didn't see any reference to changing how the clew is sheeted. If all he is doing is tacking the asymm to the pole end and leaving a single sheet flying off the clew as usual, I see no issue. Ross needs to fully describe what's going on with the sheet and what he means by using the tack line "as a kicker" to answer his question. Does this term "a kicker" mean a down haul on the pole end?  If so, no problem. If he's attaching it to the clew, along with a single sheet then I agree with you, there's a projection problem (apart from it being an odd way to rig and trim an asymm off a spinnaker pole).

Tim re: [emphasis added] “If all he is doing is tacking the asymm to the pole end and leaving a single sheet flying off the clew as usual, I see no issue.”

Agree if the above is true, it doesn’t break 55.3.

….BUT …

If he’s sailing under a handicap rating …  his rating is likely based upon flying the spin off the sprit.  Each handicap system is a “class” and he’d have to check to see that the handicap class he is competing under doesn’t have a CR against what he’s doing. 

Also … PHRF uses boats of similar make/model/revision to establish ratings.  Doing this on an asymmetric boat would likely require a custom-rating as a “modified” boat under PHRF and a new IRC/ORC rating based upon the length of the spinpole and size of chute. 

Ang

Yes as I said, if simply flying an asymm off a spin pole, sheeted normally, he wouldn't be breaking a racing rule, but could be breaking a class or handicap rule. We really need to hear from Ross to clarify how he's rigged this and what he means by a "kicker". It's not a term normally used in the context of rigging a spin pole.

Tackline becomes foreguy (kicker) and attaches to the end of the spinnaker pole to keep it down.
Spinnaker clew sheeting does not change - it is free and does not pass through the bowsprit or anything else.
Lazy sheet is disconnected from the clew and redeployed as a guy on the spinnaker pole end/ spinnaker tack.
Jib halyard redeployed as topping lift.
Good idea to use a separate line to create a guy and keep the lazy sheet connected.

Thanks Angelo and Tim.

Tim, it would seem that running through the sprit would likely break 55.3, so why not build a separate kicker.  A stainless ring, attached by equal lengths of spectra to the poles beaks.  Attach a line from the ring to asso tack line at a point behind the sprit.  This will allow you to use the same control line from the cockpit for both asso and symmetric kite.  Provided when using the symmetric kite that the asso tack line is always slack, you are not using the sprit, so satisfies 55.3..

Thanks Greig,
I think 55.3 says outward pressure on a sheet or clew - the pressure from the tackline/foreguy is onto a tack and/or a guy not a sheet or a clew?

55.3 Sheeting Sails

No sail shall be sheeted over or through any device that exerts
outward pressure on a sheet or clew of a sail at a point from
which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the
hull or deck, except:

Thanks Greig,
I think 55.3 says outward pressure on a sheet or clew - the pressure from the tackline/foreguy is onto a tack and/or a guy not a sheet or a clew?

55.3 Sheeting Sails

No sail shall be sheeted over or through any device that exerts
outward pressure on a sheet or clew of a sail at a point from
which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the

hull or deck, except:

Hi Greig,
Just trying to get head around separate kicker idea.
The real answer here is to have a system for a symmetric spinnaker and a separate one for an asymmetric spinnaker and carry one of each.
This whole idea is to adapt our asymmetric to be able to run to the mark instead of tacking downwind in lighter winds.
We aren't one design racing - mixed club - we are a First 25.7s racing sports boats and 40 footers under a PHS handicapping system.

Ross, thanks for clarifying the tackline use. That's what I assumed you were doing. Also assuming your handicap has included the use of either a sprit or spin pole, you haven't broken 55.2 or 3. I'd recommend leaving your lazy sheet on the clew, and use another line as a temporary guy. Have you checked your polars to make sure that running deep in that config gives the best downwind VMG? If it's a short distance, or you tactically want to avoid gybing to port for that heading, it might be less hassle to just run wing and wing with the assym. However if you do, you can't use the spin pole like a whisker pole on the clew which would then be flying to windward. If you did, you'd be breaking the 1st para of 55.3

Ross .. since you are competing under PHS, you need to report this mod to whoever is managing the handicaps.   PHS is “managed” differently by each club that uses it, and depending on how often they adjust the rating based on your performance, they may want to adjust yours manually due to this change. ( … or not) 

See RRS 78.1

Playing off of what Tim said, you might just want to learn how to fly wing-n-wing.  On the J70 (close to your size), they sail WnW all the time.  Practicing and being competent at that, without the extra equipment and rig changes, has a lot of tactical advantages. On my 105 we practice moving to WnW … flopping the main over or gybing only the spin.

Here are the polars for a J70. As Tim suggested, going dead down may be tactically advantageous sometimes, but as far as getting to the bottom mark, it’s usually only faster in a narrow range.

In a J/70, that’s about 9-13 kts.  Below that you make better VMG sailing the angles. Above that, you want to start trying to plane.

On my 105, the effective wind rage is higher … 12-16kts, but again I use the move tactically when other concerns out weight VMG … like getting separation from a windward competitor when wanting to stay on the course-side I’m on.

PS: Here is a sailing guide for a J70 from North. It has a section sailing WnW and making that transition. 

Thanks for great input.
Tried wing on wing before but will give it another go.
Found controlling the spinnaker without a pole a bit hairy but will take on board the techniques developed for J70 etc.
A couple of my experienced crew members brought up the same idea and video so we will do some training to get it right.
Thanks again.
Great Forum

Ross, the key to getting the hang of WnW with an asym spin, is to heel the boat toward the spin.  This uses the cloth weight to your advantage to help float the spin out and keeps the leech open. This lets it fly much more stable. 

When gybing the spin-only to get into WnW, leaning the boat to the new side helps it fill.  

When gybing the main-only to get into WnW, it can be a little trickier depending on how much pressure is in the main, to get the main over without collapsing the spin.  The main and the helm have to practice this .. which is to turn dead down, flattening the boat and throw the main over before the spin collapses behind the main. When done right, the spin will give a hint of collapsing, and then quickly refill. 

The setup Ross describes is absolutely standard racing IRC with over J poles.

It doesn't make the  boat go faster than it would with a proper sym kite: its a tactical expedient to avoid peeling to a sym (or to use the assy as a chicken chute in strong wind).

Ross is sailing a Beneteau First 25.7.  Sym kite and pole, with sprit and assy as alternative  are standard rig for the class and I very much doubt that a race committee would be interested in the rig 'changes' for PHS purposes.  Marginal changes like this that take time and several races for the crew to dial in are just what the race by race adjustments in PHS accommodate well.

The Beneteau First 25.7 is not really the same as an Elliott or a J70 that are light enough to  make money going downwind with a [modern] assy, wing and wing.  Sure, after sailing the right polar angles with  your assy for most of the leg, you can go wing and wing to gain/retain tactical advantage for a mark rounding, or to retrieve an underlay, but its not so good for the whole leg.

John, my point is that competitors should not be making the decision for themselves what is important and not relative to their rating when it comes to changes like this. 

Report that you are adding a pole to your racing inventory along with its measurements and ask them if that changes your rating. 

Ang

Angelo,

I don't think there's any rule that requires Ross to do that.

John re: “I don't think there's any rule that requires Ross to do that.”

[emphasis added]

I stand by my position that, if a sprit-boat applies for a rating, reporting the specs of their boat as a sprit boat and the dimensions and geometry of their sails and receives a rating based on that supplied data …  that the boat is obligated to sail with that config within the limits of the rating system.

Some systems specify allowable variations.  PHRF for instance is based on max J of the jib/Genoa/spin and boats are free to use smaller sails without resulting in rating changes.  Many PHRF equipment docs specify a whisker pole of no longer than the J of the boat for instance as a standard allowance.

If the available documentation for the rating cert/system doesn’t specifically say a variation is allowed, the way an “.. owner .. ensures ..” their boat is complying with their rating is to ask the entity that supplies the rating.

PS: For instance, here is the PHRF of the Chesapeake Sail and Equipment Spec’s/Reg’s.  Note 8.5 and 8.6 in this doc.