Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

TLE and SI 16.3

Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
I'm currenlty righting sailing instructions for an event and I am confused about Appendix LG SI 16.3. The SI states "The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10." Does this mean that a boat normally scored OCS would now be scored TLE because she failed to finish within the time limit (because she did not start) and was not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress. Let's assume that there are 100 boats and 99 of them finish within the Finishing Window. The 99th boat is given redress and is therefore scored 1 point. Is a boat scored TLE subsequently scored 2 or 3 points? If the two last boats are scored 98.5, what is "the finnishing place 100.5"? Does that even exist? What if the last boat is scored UFD but she still started and finnished? Is TLE then scored 102 or 103 points?
Created: 21-May-19 18:59

Comments

P
John D. Farris
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Umpire In Training
  • Club Judge
0
"Does this mean that a boat normally scored OCS would now be scored TLE?" No. RRS A5.2 and definition of Start
Created: 21-May-19 19:26
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
The boats that were OCS and UFD are penalized as OCS and UFD, This only applies to boats that are NOT penalized or retired or given redress.  Say you have a 15 boat class with a clean start and 10 finish within the finish window.  The remaining 5 boats are scored either 11 or 12 depending on what the SIs states.  
Created: 21-May-19 19:33
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
Why to make things complicated if you can keep it simple? There is no requirement for using TLE.
Created: 21-May-19 19:41
Paul Miller
Nationality: Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
0
It says
“...shall be scored points for the finishing place...”
(my emphasis). The TLE score is not affected by anything except the simple count of how many boats finished, which does not include OCS boats (as they have not finished). Subsequent actions like redress or disqualification do not affect the number of boats that finished.
Nonetheless, I would suggest not using TLE at all.
Created: 21-May-19 20:08
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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
As discussed before,  this SI creates a big problem if the last boat to finish within the Finishing window was UFD, BFD, Disqualified, etc.    Under the default RRS these boats would received the number of entries plus 2 or 3 points which is clearly not what you want.

Here is the instruction:  "The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10."

Created: 21-May-19 21:08
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
But Paul, it says " A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window.

The wording seems confusing to me. It's not clear whether TLE is based on the finishing place of the last boat to finish within the limit or the points awarded to that boat (which would, I think, include any redress or penalties). It would be more clear if it read "...scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the finishing place of the last boat to finish...". I think if I were going to use TLE I'd write the SI that way rather than the way WS wrote it in Appendix LG.

There's also the question of whether an OCS boat should be counted. I think not - under definition of Finish a boat must first start so an OCS boat has not started, cannot finish, so will not have a finishing place.

Created: 21-May-19 21:16
Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
0
Thanks for the answers! Are DNC and DNS also considered penalties? If not, is the boat scored TLE instead of DNC or DNS because she fails to finish and is not penalized? Also, what does the word "subsequently" mean here? Does it mean that the boat isn't scored TLE only if she retires after the time limit. If she retires before, is she scored TLE instead of RET?
Created: 21-May-20 07:30
Kett Cummins
Nationality: United States of America
0
We have used similar language in our SIs for years and I appreciate these comments.
To your point, Jaakko, instead of "boats failing to finish", we say "boats that are still racing".  Thus, a boat that has previously retired is no longer racing and is not subject to TLE.  Similarly, boats scored DNC or DNS are not racing.

Here is an example of our SI rule:  "Within each class, boats that are still racing thirty (30) minutes after the first boat sails the course and finishes, and are not subsequently retired, penalized or given redress, shall be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing and receive points equal to two (2) places behind the last boat scored as finished, but not worse than last place among the boats that came to the starting area. This alters RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 & A10.

In my opinion, the setup and use of the term "Finishing Window" is unnecessarily complex.
Created: 21-May-20 14:36
Robin Gray
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • International Race Officer
  • National Race Officer
0
As Arto said above - keep it simple - just don't use it!   In UK we have other processe including Whiskey Flag process which are very useful particularly with junior classes.
Created: 21-May-21 11:00
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Such TLE scoring creates an enormous skewing of results in a series of races.
In the example of only one boat finishing on time, a boat that would have finished 99th is scored 2 or 3.
In a subsequent race in the series, the boat that scored the legitimate "1" stands at a clear disadvantage if she finishes anything worse than the top 3.
Created: 21-May-21 20:08
Kett Cummins
Nationality: United States of America
0
I have to disagree, Philip.  If 99 of 100 boats are forced to retire, THAT would be an enormous skewing in favor of the one boat that finished.  If those boats are all scored TLE (3 points), then first place gets their win and a 2-point advantage, but the rest of the fleet is kept in the hunt (i.e., they don't have to eat a RET).

Of course, realistically, if it looks like there's a chance that the majority of the fleet may not finish in time, the RC should abandon the race before the first boat finishes.  TLE is more useful when it affects just a few back-markers and is used to keep a regatta on schedule.
Created: 21-May-21 22:44
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Kett, you have described the opposite end of the skewed results from TLE scoring. Neither is good.
You are right that abandonment is likely the fairest route. 
But could there be a better way that this crowd might brainstorm?
Created: 21-May-21 22:53
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
what does the word "subsequently" mean here? Does it mean that the boat isn't scored TLE only if she retires after the time limit. If she retires before, is she scored TLE instead of RET?

I think it means that a boat that retires after (subsequent to) the close of the finishing window would be scored RET. A boat that retired prior to the finishing window would also be scored RET. I believe only a boat that continued to race and finish after the close of the time limit would be scored TLE. 

Which seems like it would be a nuisance for the boats who would rather fire up the motor and head in, and an inconvenience for the race committee who would have to remain on station until all of the late boats either finished or retired.
Created: 21-May-21 23:38
Anthony Martin
Nationality: United States of America
0
Tim, it can't mean that boats have to finish after their time limit has expired.  The point of TLE is to be able to end the race (fire up the engine, let the RC go in).  That said, a boat may still RET subsequent to the finish (perhaps realizing they'd broken a rule, but not wanting a DSQ for DNE).  But to get TLE, you do have to keep racing until the actual time limit is reached, after that you're not racing. 
Created: 21-May-22 20:30
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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Ketts's suggested change to Appendix LG SI 16.3 is good and to prevent skewed results as Phillip suggested you can state that a TLE score will not cause a boat's score to be less than a percentage of the number of boats that started.   

I am a fan of using TLE in certain cases, like junior events and evening races.   Nothing is more frustration to me to see young sailors sail for 1 hour, not making the time limit and getting the same points as the boats that stayed on shore.   Most of the time the wind drops at the during evening races and this gives the faster rated boats an advantage.  In both cases a TLE score gives the boats some credit for racing.

However, I doubt that most scoring systems can automatically calculate the TLE scores correctly.   I can speak for SailWave and I am sure that most other systems have the same problem.   This means that the TLE score has be calculated manually for each race and when scores are changed adjusted in some cases.

Created: 21-May-22 21:14
Kett Cummins
Nationality: United States of America
0
Someone needs to explain it to me further, because I still don't see how TLE "skews" the results.  Race scoring is relative.  If you do better than your competitors, then you gain in the points.  As long as the finishers get a points advantage over TLE and the TLE boats get no relative advantage among themselves, then nothing is skewed.
Created: 21-May-23 01:38
Paul Miller
Nationality: Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
0
Good evening Kett, let me try to explain this from a competitor’s viewpoint.
 I’m in a five race series on 5 points ahead of second place on 22 and third place on 27 going into the fourth race with a 30 boat fleet. It is light airs and getting lighter. I’ve spent my Annapolis years learning how to sail in nothing, and I take my boat around the course impeccably with myself and my crew exhausted from hiking on the low side and moving around the boat like the cockpit sole is covered in broken glass. I’m wrecking a nearly new main by pulling the clew outhaul so tight it makes an audible ‘twang’ when we tack, and my experience of the sailing area lets me get tiny but significant advantage from current back-eddies and shallow patches.
As we approach the finish line, we look back and our second and third place boats are miles behind: near the back of the fleet. The nearest boat is 500m behind and went into this race in 23td on 57 points, but they too have worked hard to deal with the light airs.
We finish and the boat behind is the only other boat to finish, exhausted from doing the hard work of light air sailing. Everyone behind has had a great fun day on the water taking swims and dragging their feet in the water knowing that every one of them is going to get their best result of the series without any effort at all. What is worse is that the second boat will end up with their best result of the week reduced to a two point win.
Sailing is a sport of skill, and to stop it becoming a leisure activity based on ‘deferred success’ skill should be rewarded. Sometimes, like doing a really good job of dealing with really hard circumstance, that reward should be huge: like getting one point when almost everyone else gets 31.
I’ll admit that some races end up being lotteries won by shear luck. A good race committee has every opportunity to abandon such races either before or after finishing the race. But a race won by skill should be rewarded as such, and not diluted by a misplaced desire to reduce the effect of difficult conditions.
Disclaimer: I have written this in the first person, but anyone that knows me well can testify that I am not that light-air specialist so this is a purely fictional case.

Created: 21-May-23 02:32
Paul Miller
Nationality: Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
0
Peter, there are other mechanisms to deal with the stragglers. I have often used a SI allowing me to use a ‘white flag’ as described elsewhere as a W scoring stragglers in their current position. For youth and inexperienced classes, this is, if dealt with with some sensitivity, very useful.
Created: 21-May-23 02:39
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
The point of TLE is to be able to end the race (fire up the engine, let the RC go in) ...  But to get TLE, you do have to keep racing until the actual time limit is reached, after that you're not racing.

Anthony, now we also get crosswise with the definition of racing. A boat can't simply be declared "not racing" after the time limit expires, so a boat that fires up the motor at that point must be considered to have retired before finishing (and, in my view, "subsequently" to the finishing window) so not eligible for TLE score.

Seems like the more we look at this SI the more problematic it appears to be.
Created: 21-May-23 03:32
Graham Kelly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
The point of a TLE is to avoid a situation where a drop in the wind that causes competitors to fail to finish within the Finishing Window is fatal to their chance to win the regatta. That is a policy decision to be adopted or rejected, recognizing that in such situations, luck often plays a major role in the final finishing order. As a long-time competitor, I think it is a much more fair way to deal with the vicissitudes of nature in this situation. It also rewards the lucky and skillful competitors who finish before the TL expires, which abandonment does not.
Created: 21-May-28 18:18
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Sue re: “The boats that were OCS and UFD are penalized as OCS and UFD,”

OCS isn’t actually  a “penalty” is it?  Isn’t it a scoring documentation that the boat did not start in compliance with 29.1 or 30.1? I think of OCS as a variation of DNS and is different in that regard from ZPF, UFD, BFD in that those others represent starting penalties that the RC has authority to apply.  

Therefore, I don’t think OCS is captured by the “... or penalized ..” carve-out in the sample language. 
Created: 21-May-31 00:59
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
PS:  My above point may be more so given the new quad and the new "finish".

In the previous quad, a boat could have a finish-place without starting .. therefore if the boat finished and then was scored OCS, that could be interpreted as a "penalty" because their finish place was made worse by the RC scoring action.  However, with the new finish, a boat can not have a finish place without starting.  Therefore OCS does not make her finish-place worse because she can't have a finish-place. 

In that regard, it seems under the new quad especially, OCS is simply a specific type of DNS (unless the SI's provide for a scoring penalty for OCS as is an option under the new test-rule .. DR20-01 Alternate Starting Penalty). 
Created: 21-May-31 12:16
Kett Cummins
Nationality: United States of America
0
Ang,  You seem to be describing an unfortunate Catch 22 in the rules.  You cannot be penalized unless you finish, and you cannot finish if you don't start, so you cannot be penalized for not starting correctly!  Arguably, if you go out intending to sail a race, you have the expectation of scoring no worse than last place.  If you are scored DNS or OCS, then your score is made worse than your expectation and, thus, becomes very much like a penalty.  If it looks like a penalty, and smells like a penalty...
Created: 21-May-31 13:28
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
The way I see it is if you are OCS and sail the race your score is not your finish position (that is unless you are granted redress) it is OCS.  Sounds like a penalty to me.  

pen·al·ty

 (pĕn′əl-tē)
n. pl. pen·al·ties
1. A punishment imposed for a violation of law.
2. A sum established by a contract to be forfeited in lieu of actual damages in the event of a breach of the contract.
3. The disadvantage or painful consequences resulting from an action or condition: neglected his health and paid the penalty.
4. Sports
a. A punishment, handicap, or loss of advantage imposed on a team or competitor for infraction of a rule.
b. An infraction of a rule; a foul.
c. A penalty kick.
d. A penalty shot.
5. Games Points scored in contract bridge by the opponents when the declarer fails to make a bid.
Created: 21-May-31 14:31
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Hmm. So a boat is racing from her prep signal until she finishes (or retires, etc.). But if she's OCS she hasn't started and she can't finish without having started.

That's approblem, I think. But it could be considered that a boat that is OCS hasn't complied with 28.1.

On the other hand, A5.1 describes OCS &NSC  as scoring actions, not a penalties. 
Created: 21-May-31 15:28
Kett Cummins
Nationality: United States of America
0
A hypothetical:  A crowd of boats is starting at the pin-end of the starting line.  One boat cannot fetch the pin, so she crosses the line extension outside the pin and sails the race.  The RC cannot see this, but the nearest competitor files a valid protest.  No boats were OCS and all boats are scored in their finishing places, pending protest.  Should the offending boat be scored DNS or DSQ?
Created: 21-May-31 15:35
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Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
I'll assume that the boat crossed the finish line. Since the RC didn't know that the boat didn't start it should score the boat in it's position.   If the protest is successful, the protest committee would probably direct the RC to score the boat DNE under RRS2.
Created: 21-May-31 15:47
Kett Cummins
Nationality: United States of America
0
Excellent point!  A boat can be penalized under RRS2 (or 69) regardless of whether they started, sailed the course, or finished.
Created: 21-May-31 16:04
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
I would say that in case of valid protest the real case is rule 28 and DSQ and if necessary DNE under rule 2.
Created: 21-May-31 17:28
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
I agree the protest would be on 28.1. Whether it was DSQ/DNS or DNE I think would depend on the testimony. If the boat felt they were forced over and thought they were allowed to proceed then maybe DSQ/DNS, take your pick. If it looked they knew they broke the rule and were hoping not to get caught then rule 2 & DNE would be on the table. 
Created: 21-May-31 17:58
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Sue .. re: "The way I see it is if you are OCS and sail the race your score is not your finish position (that is unless you are granted redress) it is OCS.  Sounds like a penalty to me."

Yes, under the 2017 quad .. but I would say 'maybe not' under the 2021 quad. 

A3. STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

Finish
A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side.[ ...]

A boat does not finish if they did not start.  Therefore a boat that is OCS does not have a finish place .. they 'did not start'.  This is a change from the previous quad where start was not a requirement for finish.  Previously RC's were required to record the finish place of all boats that finish .. but the previous def: finish didn't require that a boat started.

I'm suggesting that a score of OCS does not change their finish place because they do not have a finish place ... and therefore is not a "penalty" but rather simply an "RC scoring action".
Created: 21-May-31 18:47
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
I am just thinking what is the point of this conversation? RRS gives exact details how to score boats. No matter if it is a penalty or not.
There is two issues; points determined by race committee and penalties given by the PC. RC can give certain "penalties" like 30.1/2/3/4 but no more. Only PC can give scoring worse than that.
Created: 21-May-31 18:59
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Arto, the OP asked ... “Does this mean that a boat normally scored OCS would now be scored TLE because she failed to finish within the time limit (because she did not start) and was not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress. ”

One response was that OCS falls within “penalized”.  ... and so on ...
Created: 21-May-31 19:06
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
If the boat was OCS it is her score if she finishes. Why would TLE situation change that fact?
She fails the time limit but is still OCS.
Created: 21-May-31 19:22
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Arto re: “If the boat was OCS it is her score if she finishes.”

Right I agree .. “if she finishes” is the point .. there is no “if” because finishing is no longer possible for an OCS boat in the new quad. 
Created: 21-May-31 21:00
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Jaakko et’al, can’t we “fix” the recommended TLE language by adding RC scoring actions under A5 to the list of exceptions?  Something like ....

 "The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized, or given redress, or otherwise scored by the RC under A5, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. 
Created: 21-Jun-01 01:12
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
A question, if we skip TLE, a boat who crosses starting line too early, how it will be scored?
Created: 21-Jun-01 04:04
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
63.1 Requirement for a Hearing
A boat or competitor shall not be penalized without a protest hearing, except as provided in rules .. A5.1..  ->
A5.1 -> A boat that did not start, sail the course, or finish
Created: 21-Jun-01 06:29
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
3 baskets of fruit ... #1 all apples, #2 half apples and oranges, #3 all oranges and 2 apples.

Now I ask you to bring the baskets with apples .. which do you bring?

63.1 makes sense as long as A5.1 contains at least one penalty as 63.1 lists a whole series of rules ( 30.2, 30.3, 30.4, 64.4(d), 64.5(b), 64.6, 69, 78.2, A5.1 and P2) 

Everything in A5.1 does not need to be a penalty for A5.1 to make that list (NSC is a penalty).

PS: Last sentence of A5.1 ... “Only the protest committee may take other scoring actions that worsen a boat’s score.”

DNS and OCS do not “worsen a boat’s score” because a boat that does not start, can not have a finish-place. This is a change in the new quad. 
Created: 21-Jun-01 12:06
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
So, when can you score the boat OCS?
Created: 21-Jun-01 12:49
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
If the SI’s provide a starting window of time, I think an RC can safely score a boat OCS or DNS as soon as the starting window ends. 
Created: 21-Jun-01 13:06
Arto Kiiski
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
Sorry, I don't follow...
Created: 21-Jun-01 14:22
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
 ... a starting window time .. as in Appendix LG SI 12.7 .. "A boat that does not start within #-min's of her starting signal will be scored DNS without a hearing .. "  .. maybe you call that a 'starting time limit' instead of 'window'.
Created: 21-Jun-01 18:07
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