Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

What's the difference between a 'Regatta' and a 'series longer than a Regatta'

Paul Kimmens
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
Does anyone know if there is a definition of a 'regatta' and therefore a definition of 'a series longer than a regatta'? i.e. when does Appendix A9 apply?

I have always been under the impression that a 'regatta' is an event over a weekend, number of days, where races are held on continuos days (subject to lay days, weather ,etc) and 'a series longer than a regatta' is where races are held say every Saturday over a period of weeks or months.

I suppose the easy answer to avoid any doubt is to state whether a series will be scored using A9 in the SI's

Thanks

Paul
Created: 17-Nov-21 00:10

Comments

Ben Fels
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • National Race Officer
0
This was looked at recently, here is the AUS position.

RSG 19

Question

Scoring at McCrae Yacht Club

For a race in the McCrae YC “Aggregate Series”, should a DNF boat be scored according to A4.2 or A9? Which rules apply to come to this conclusion?

A follow-up question: What is the definition of a 'regatta' as used in A9?

Background

The Aggregate series is held over a period of 5 months from November 2017 – April 2018.

Answer

As ‘regatta’ is not a defined term under the RRS we have taken the meaning as ‘used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use’ (refer Introduction of the RRS - ‘Terminology’). In this regard we would define a regatta as ‘A series of races over a short period’

The RSG advises the series should be scored in accordance with A9 as the “Aggregate Series” is a series that is held over a longer period of time than a regatta.

An example of a regatta would be the McCrae Yacht Club ‘Bendigo Ice Breaker’ regatta held over the weekend of the 23/24th September.

Discussion on the above answer

In reviewing the question, the RSG has noted some anomalies in the way the rules are presented and we can see how alternative opinions could be presented.

For example, there is now no need to mention the ‘Low Point System’ in rule 90.3. This is a hangover from when there used to be two systems detailed in Appendix A.

We also agree that it would be clearer if A4.2 was repositioned to be part of A9.

However, from the way the appendix is set up with the various options, such as Race Ties and Series Ties, that apply to the overall scoring system, then A9 should be applied to the Scoring system when appropriate.

Not to do so would make A9 irrelevant.

Conclusion

To make the issue clearer the RSG will be recommending AS make a submission to WS for a change to be made in the next rule book.

Created: 17-Nov-21 01:06
John Standley
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
0
A similar question was recently asked of the Australian Sailing Rules Specialist Group and the investigation threw up some interesting anomilies in the rules.
For example why does rule 90.3(a) specify the Low point system when there is now only one system in the book.
Secondly, if the low point system is being used how can A9 ever apply as A4 specifies the low point system which includes A4.2?

Submissions are being developed to be made next year to resolve these issues.
The following is the answer given to the question but in the meantime the best way would be to specify that A9 is being used in the SI's.
John Standley

Question

Scoring at McCrae Yacht Club

For a race in the McCrae YC “Aggregate Series”, should a DNF boat be scored according to A4.2 or A9? Which rules apply to come to this conclusion?

A follow-up question: What is the definition of a 'regatta' as used in A9?

Background

The Aggregate series is held over a period of 5 months from November 2017 – April 2018.

Answer

As ‘regatta’ is not a defined term under the RRS we have taken the meaning as ‘used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use’ (refer Introduction of the RRS - ‘Terminology’). In this regard we would define a regatta as ‘A series of races over a short period’

The RSG advises the series should be scored in accordance with A9 as the “Aggregate Series” is a series that is held over a longer period of time than a regatta.

An example of a regatta would be the McRae Yacht Club ‘Bendigo Ice Breaker’ regatta held over the weekend of the 23/24th September.

Discussion on the above answer

In reviewing the question, the RSG has noted some anomalies in the way the rules are presented and we can see how alternative opinions could be presented.

For example, there is now no need to mention the ‘Low Point System’ in rule 90.3. This is a hangover from when there used to be two systems detailed in Appendix A.

We also agree that it would be clearer if A4.2 was repositioned to be part of A9.

However, from the way the appendix is set up with the various options, such as Race Ties and Series Ties, that apply to the overall scoring system, then A9 should be applied to the Scoring system when appropriate.

Not to do so would make A9 irrelevant.

Conclusion

To make the issue clearer the RSG will be recommending AS make a submission to WS for a change to be made in the next rule book.

John Standley

Chairman

On behalf of the Rules Specialist Group

23rd October 2017

Created: 17-Nov-21 01:11
Bill Bell
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
  • National Race Officer
0

I am unable to think of any situation where Appendix A9 is appropriate to use or is relevant except for calculating progressive scores as a series progresses. That said, a series should only be scored at the end of the series or when entries for the series close and the total number of entries are known. Any progressive scores are indicative only (Just the same as a normal race which is scored at the finish and not where the boats are at each mark rounding)

The use of Appendix A9 can throw up some unusual and unfair overall results such as;

Situation;

Strict one design event held one race per month over nine months with one drop

Boat A was unable to compete in races 8 & 9 due to illness while Boat B was unable to compete in race 9 due to illness and came to the start of race 1 and became ill and did not start

Both boats have identical points and positions under identical circumstances but Boat B defeats Boat A despite being unable to finish in front of Boat A in any of the six races they competed against each other.

This example demonstrates why Appendix A9 is unfair and inappropriate.

In my opinion the best way to resolve this tie would be on a head to head basis in races where both boats compete. In this example Boat A would win 6 – nil. If the score was still a tie (3 – 3) the boat that was ahead in the last race they competed against each other could be used to resolve the tie.

Created: 17-Nov-21 02:13
Ken Hardy
Nationality: United States of America
0

US Sailing provides guidance for alternative scoring systems for a long series spanning several weeks or months:

The gist of the proposed methods are that A) a boats’ race scores are a function of the number of boats beaten in each race she sailed in, and B) so long as the boat sails enough races to qualify she is not penalized for missing races.

Created: 17-Nov-21 19:10
Baptiste Verniest
Nationality: France
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Umpire
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Hi Paul and all,
My opinion on this is that A9 would indeed apply on events held over a period of time, not on consecutive days. You may especially consider having a series including several regattas, like an event inside an event.
Take a Winter Championship. Some of those have 1 race per weekend. You may have 1 regatta per weekend, with 4 or 5 races.
Consider 1 weekend = 1 regatta (with an official ranking, etc.), and you want each of those regattas to be counted as one race for the series.
Races 1.1 to 1.5 consist in Event 1. Boats are ranked in the following order: A, B, C, E. F did not come to the racing area and D retired.
Races 2.1 to 2.3 consist in Event 2. Boats are ranked: C, B, A, E, F. D retired.

After those two weekends, you have completed Event 1 (with 5 boats), Event 2 (with 6 boats) and you have a provisional ranking for the Winter Championship (with 6 boats):
A: 1+3=4
B: 2+2=4
C: 3+1=4
D: (5+1) + (6+1) = 13
E: 4+4=8
F: (6+1) + 5=12
/!\ As Bill Bell pointed out, parenthesis scores will vary throughout the event if you get more entries.
Considering a weekend regatta is a Race in the series, A9 can indeed be applied.

The Winter Championship provisional ranking would therefore be:
A, B and C tied for 1st place to be decided with A8 (B third, then C first and A second), E fourth, F fifth and D sixth.

You may prescribe that you may discard one score when blabla (otherwise, above rankings are wrong as one race should be excluded under A2). You may prescribe that a boat not racing scores differently that what's in A9...

In my opinion, most of the times, NoR and SIs rewrite their ranking rule for the whole series.

But I am thinking as I am writing...
This also applies if you carry on the races throughout the whole series, and then we're back on the Australian answer, that A9 modifies A4.2 in longer events, and I obviously (from what I previously wrote) agree with the definition of the regatta in their context.
Created: 17-Nov-22 23:34
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