Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Breaking overlap just prior to entering the Zone

Colin Huggett
Nationality: Canada
In the diagram below (this is my first post, so I hope the diagram is actually visible), is Y permitted to break an existing overlap by gybing away from the mark prior to entering the zone?  Similar tactic would be for Y to luff B prior to entering the Zone and then bear away sharply to break the overlap.  Are there any restrictions on this or similar tactics to break an overlap, other than difficulty of establishing just exactly where Y entered the Zone.  In dinghies and RC sailing quick gybes are fairly easy to pull off.
210426mark rounding 1.bmp 1.59 MB
Created: 21-Apr-27 12:37

Comments

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Colin, examine closely the last sentence of Definition Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap
Created: 21-Apr-27 12:40
Loic Durand Raucher
Nationality: France
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Well, the difficult point is to convince the jury that the overlap was brocken before entering the zone. 
If the jury is not convinced, it will consider the overlap has not been brocken, and it will DSQ Y for breaking 18.2.b
Created: 21-Apr-27 13:44
Dan Bowman
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
A less then Corinthian manner of gaining tactical advantage at the circle entrance.  I would advise a skipper or tactician against this type of maneuver because they will enter the protest hearing with a 50% chance of winning and a DSQ will be the result of losing the hearing.  The reason is because of the following rule.

18.2.e If there is a reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap at the time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
Created: 21-Apr-27 14:16
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
After reading the last sentence of overlap definition, how  does the maneuver effect the overlap between the boats?
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:10
Juuso Leivonen
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • National Judge
1
Why wouldn't it be ok? :) In more or less the same way, if 17 is off on the run, the windward boat can break an overlap by luffing, and turn 17 on when she turns back down. 

Like you said, the difficult bit is convincing the PC, or the umpires, that you were clear ahead when entering the zone. Always risky to leave the race in the hands of the pc/umpires, because you can never know for sure which way it goes. But if the risk is on balance worth it for some reason and you really need to have the other boat a couple of lengths behind you, then by all means :)
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:40
Juuso Leivonen
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • National Judge
0
Easier and safer would be to do that double gybe move earlier (if 17 was on) and luff blue well on the right side of the mark, gybe first and enter the zone on starboard. Then it would be clear(er) that you were in the zone first and clear ahead. (If no 17, then no need for the first gybes :) )
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:43
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
My bad .. the dark blue color made it hard for me to distinguish the numbers correctly.
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:48
Steve Schupak
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
1
This happens in nearly every team race at mark 3...or something very close
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:52
Graham Kelly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
1
As a practical matter, it is difficult to establish through testimony that the turn was done in a manner that Y broke the overlap, and then entered the zone before the overlap was re-establlshed by Y's turn back to the mark. I think that in this circumstance, the PC is likely to rely on the presumption of 18(e), and rule that Y did not break B's O/L For that reason, I would think that this maneuver is likely best reserved for team racing, when experienced umpires will be looking for precisely this move.
Created: 21-Apr-27 19:04
P
Nicholas Kotsatos
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
What Graham said. 18.2(e) effectively makes this impossible unless there is a circle drawn on the water. It ALMOST adds another boat length to the zone.
Created: 21-Apr-28 00:05
Simon Winn
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
A jury would ask the contestants as to the time/distance before the mark that they were agreed they were or were not overlapped.  This is helpful when deciding how to apply RRS 18 (e).
Created: 21-Apr-28 13:03
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
I would make it simpler.
Inside boat have right of mark room. As a principle.
Unless 18.2b
18.2 b, (to make it simple):  external boat, to take away the mark room right from inside boat, she must 
a) enter the zone before inside boat 
AND 
b) be clear ahead of the inside boat. 
Both conditions. 
In the example, the inside boat enter first, not the outside, so the hell with 182b, overlap or not.

Created: 21-Apr-28 16:51
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0

If i can think about position N° 4,25, Blue is inside the zone and Rule 18 is off



66.jpg 46 KB
Created: Fri 23:32
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0

At N°5  rule 11 + 15 for Yellow and 18.2(a) for Blue...........so at N°7 DSQ YELLOW


67.jpg 58.7 KB
Created: Fri 23:34
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