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Breaking overlap just prior to entering the Zone
Colin Huggett
Nationality: Canada
0
In the diagram below (this is my first post, so I hope the diagram is actually visible), is Y permitted to break an existing overlap by gybing away from the mark prior to entering the zone? Similar tactic would be for Y to luff B prior to entering the Zone and then bear away sharply to break the overlap. Are there any restrictions on this or similar tactics to break an overlap, other than difficulty of establishing just exactly where Y entered the Zone. In dinghies and RC sailing quick gybes are fairly easy to pull off.
Well, the difficult point is to convince the jury that the overlap was brocken before entering the zone. If the jury is not convinced, it will consider the overlap has not been brocken, and it will DSQ Y for breaking 18.2.b
Created: 21-Apr-27 13:44
Dan Bowman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Race Officer In Training
0
A less then Corinthian manner of gaining tactical advantage at the circle entrance. I would advise a skipper or tactician against this type of maneuver because they will enter the protest hearing with a 50% chance of winning and a DSQ will be the result of losing the hearing. The reason is because of the following rule.
18.2.e If there is a reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap at the time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
Created: 21-Apr-27 14:16
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
-1
After reading the last sentence of overlap definition, how does the maneuver effect the overlap between the boats?
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:10
Juuso Leivonen
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
International Judge
International Umpire
1
Why wouldn't it be ok? :) In more or less the same way, if 17 is off on the run, the windward boat can break an overlap by luffing, and turn 17 on when she turns back down.
Like you said, the difficult bit is convincing the PC, or the umpires, that you were clear ahead when entering the zone. Always risky to leave the race in the hands of the pc/umpires, because you can never know for sure which way it goes. But if the risk is on balance worth it for some reason and you really need to have the other boat a couple of lengths behind you, then by all means :)
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:40
Juuso Leivonen
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
International Judge
International Umpire
0
Easier and safer would be to do that double gybe move earlier (if 17 was on) and luff blue well on the right side of the mark, gybe first and enter the zone on starboard. Then it would be clear(er) that you were in the zone first and clear ahead. (If no 17, then no need for the first gybes :) )
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:43
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
My bad .. the dark blue color made it hard for me to distinguish the numbers correctly.
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:48
Steve Schupak
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
International Judge
National Umpire
1
This happens in nearly every team race at mark 3...or something very close
Created: 21-Apr-27 15:52
Graham Kelly
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
2
As a practical matter, it is difficult to establish through testimony that the turn was done in a manner that Y broke the overlap, and then entered the zone before the overlap was re-establlshed by Y's turn back to the mark. I think that in this circumstance, the PC is likely to rely on the presumption of 18(e), and rule that Y did not break B's O/L For that reason, I would think that this maneuver is likely best reserved for team racing, when experienced umpires will be looking for precisely this move.
Created: 21-Apr-27 19:04
P
Nicholas Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Judge In Training
0
What Graham said. 18.2(e) effectively makes this impossible unless there is a circle drawn on the water. It ALMOST adds another boat length to the zone.
Created: 21-Apr-28 00:05
Simon Winn
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
A jury would ask the contestants as to the time/distance before the mark that they were agreed they were or were not overlapped. This is helpful when deciding how to apply RRS 18 (e).
Created: 21-Apr-28 13:03
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
National Race Officer
National Judge
-1
I would make it simpler. Inside boat have right of mark room. As a principle. Unless 18.2b 18.2 b, (to make it simple): external boat, to take away the mark room right from inside boat, she must a) enter the zone before inside boat AND b) be clear ahead of the inside boat. Both conditions. In the example, the inside boat enter first, not the outside, so the hell with 182b, overlap or not.
Created: 21-Apr-28 16:51
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
-1
If i can think about position N° 4,25, Blue is inside the zone and Rule 18 is off
Created: 21-May-07 23:32
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
-1
At N°5 rule 11 + 15 for Yellow and 18.2(a) for Blue...........so at N°7 DSQ YELLOW
Created: 21-May-07 23:34
Graham Kelly
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
0
I agree with Catalan because under 18.2(e), Yellow must provide persuasive credible evidence that she broke Blue's O/L when she was outside the zone. IMO, that will be difficult unless there are independent witnesses whose testimony is sufficient to overcome the presumption of 18.2(e).
Created: 21-May-28 18:35
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If the jury is not convinced, it will consider the overlap has not been brocken, and it will DSQ Y for breaking 18.2.b
18.2.e If there is a reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap at the time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
Like you said, the difficult bit is convincing the PC, or the umpires, that you were clear ahead when entering the zone. Always risky to leave the race in the hands of the pc/umpires, because you can never know for sure which way it goes. But if the risk is on balance worth it for some reason and you really need to have the other boat a couple of lengths behind you, then by all means :)
Inside boat have right of mark room. As a principle.
Unless 18.2b
18.2 b, (to make it simple): external boat, to take away the mark room right from inside boat, she must
a) enter the zone before inside boat
AND
b) be clear ahead of the inside boat.
Both conditions.
In the example, the inside boat enter first, not the outside, so the hell with 182b, overlap or not.
If i can think about position N° 4,25, Blue is inside the zone and Rule 18 is off
At N°5 rule 11 + 15 for Yellow and 18.2(a) for Blue...........so at N°7 DSQ YELLOW