Forum: Match and Team Racing Rules

Team race scoring and NSC

Don Griglack
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Umpire
During an umpired team race, the umpires observe that a competitor failed to round one of the marks.

The new NSC scoring rule says that the Race Committee shall score a boat NSC if she does not sail the course.  Is the umpire’s observation that the mark was missed sufficient to conclude that the boat didn’t sail the course or does the Race Committee have to observe this independently.  I don’t believe that the umpire is part of Race Committee.

If not then a black flag and hearing are still required
Created: 21-Mar-23 17:49

Comments

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Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
If the RC is satisfied with the umpire observation then I believe the RC may score the boat NSC.
Created: 21-Mar-23 20:13
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mike, I put this out there on a separate thread as well.  Though I agree based upon the rules, an RC "may" score the boat NSC based upon a report from the umpire, I think the better course of action is to do it the old fashioned way.  

This is only my opinion, but I think it would be better guidance that the score of NSC should be based upon an RC's own records and observations, such that its imposition or reversal is consistent with RRS 90.3(c).

I just checked and it doesn't appear there is a new WS Race Management Manual out (last rev was 2019) .. so no guidance there yet. - Ang
Created: 21-Mar-23 22:16
Lloyd Causey
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
I think it is much like calling a boat across the start line before Time.  I think often with long lines, the Pin Set Boat makes some calls because the RC Signal Boat cannot see.

However quite a few judges will not make calls on-the-water because it is supposed to be self policing by the competitors.  
Created: 21-Mar-24 02:35
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Lloyd, you are sort’a making my point for me. A pin boat is part of the RC, therefore if the pin boat sees an OCS or an NSC, that is part of the RC’s observation and records so perfectly fine in my book. 

It seems to me that both RRS D2.3 and D2.4 are consistent in directing the TR umpires to “report” to the PC and D2.3 includes a list of rule breaking incidents that they “may” report to the PC.  Pulling out a rule 28 incident to report to the RC instead of the PC seems a bit against the grain to me (along with my previous  90.3(c) consistency argument). 
Created: 21-Mar-24 03:09
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
A few points.

As discussed in previous posts I disagree with Angelo's view that a race committee should not score a boat NSC except on its own observation.  I believe that a race committee shall score a boat NSC whenever it receives evidence proving on the balance of probabilities that the boat did not sail the course.  If the rules writers meant that a race committee was restricted to acting on its own observations they could have said so, they could have said so, as in  RRS 90.3c.  They did not do so.

To the problem.

Bear in mind that a boat does not break rule 28 until she finishes (113).

Also bear in mind that in TR, with 3 minute starts, there's a good chance that the race committee won't be able to consistently observe boats rounding marks at all.

In TR, it's pretty unlikely that a boat will miss a mark unintentionally, although in the heat of a tactical 'battle' she might lose sight of the mark, and go the wrong side.

So, the likely scenario of a boat going the wrong side of a mark will be so as to tactically engage a competitor.

This will mean that is interfering with a boat sailing on another leg breaking rule 23.2

Team Race Call E13
 After the starting signal, a boat that passes the wrong side of a mark is not on the same leg of the course as a boat that is passing the mark on the required side.

Presumably there will be an incident resulting in a red flag protest by a boat, which an umpire will respond to, and in accordance with Call E13, will penalise the NSC boat.

If the NSC boat then takes her turns penalty and continues on the new leg without rounding the mark, the umpire will have the choice under rule D2.3(c) to impose another penalty or black flag the boat and report the incident to the protest committee.  Note this power to report is to the protest committee not the race committee.

If the NSC boat does not take the first penalty, then the umpire can still give a further penalty or black flag and report to the protest committee under rule D2.3(f).

If the NSC boat continues on the new leg without correcting her rule 28 error, and again tactically engages with another boat, she will again be breaking rule 23.2.

I think this second instance would be sufficient evidence for an umpire to consider this a breach of sportsmanship and black flag and report to the protest committee under rule D2.3(g).

It might be argued that the powers of umpires to give reports are limited, by rule D2.3 to reporting to the protest committee, and that an umpire has no power to make a report to the race committee.  I think that this is an unduly restrictive interpretation, and that an umpire may report a rule 28 error to the race committee, although there will probably be one or more black flag protests, which may have rule 2 implications arising.

Created: 21-Mar-24 23:01
Phil Mostyn
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • International Judge
0
One of the important principles of TR race management and umpiring is to avoid delays, so I see the addition of sail the course to RRS A5.1 as a simple a means by which delays, caused by rule 28 protest hearings, can be avoided. Sure, a boat so penalised can request redress, but many delays can be eliminated.

I don't think it was ever anticipated that RC personal would ever be involved in reporting rule 28 offences. They are usually all too busy as John has pointed out. In practice, umpires will display black flags for offences observed, and report same to the PC. Instead of arranging a protest hearing the PC will simply report the alleged offence to the RC and the boat will be scored accordingly. The boat can request redress but any hearings can be held after a RR or after coming off the water. Many unnecessary hearings will be avoided. Of course, RCs can act on their own initiative.
Created: 21-Mar-25 10:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
I was having a conversation with an experienced judge regarding this question and I wanted to offer their position.

Position: NSC can not be applied by the RC in Team Racing because NSC is not part of Team Racing's scoring system.

Argument:  They come to the above position by applying 90.3(a): "The race committee shall score a race or series as provided in Appendix A unless the notice of race or sailing instructions specify some other system."

When the NOR/SI's for a TR event invoke Appx D, it will more than likely include D3 which is the scoring system for TR'ing.  Thus 90.3 instructs the RC to use D3 instead of Appx A. 

NSC is not defined in D3. 

Therefore, a boat not sailing the course would have to be protested, found to have broken a rule in a valid hearing and penalized under D3.1(e). 

Conclusion: RC's do not have the ability to score a boat NSC in Team Racing (regardless of the source of the information).
Created: 21-Apr-01 12:57
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Good get.
Created: 21-Apr-01 23:12
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