Forum: Protest Hearing Procedures

Appendix T1 without T2?

P
Christopher Walmsley
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
Proposal: Have the SIs activate T1, and not T2.  Also have the SIs adjust the wording of RRS T (c) so that the penalty is submitted, not to an arbitrator, but to the ...<whatever is appropriate>

Rational: Have boats, who may have been involved on the water in a Part 2 incident, be able to reconsider and determine they are in the wrong (any time within the protest time limit) and then submit for a "Post Race Penalty".  ( RSS T1 (c) )

Background:  For our club races, we used to activate all of Appendix T, but have found it impractical to always be able to provide an arbitrator.   We thought about withdrawing all of Appendix T from our SIs, but were pondering just using T1 in order to encourage post race discussion, possible consultation with knowledgeable people, consultation with local judges, or just reading the RRS in more detail, and to be able to change their minds about what happened on the water and take a lesser penalty.  (with the same right of a protestor to continue with a hearing, but also with the protestee not being given a worse penalty that the 30% they accepted)

I suppose the likely scenario would be when a protest is lodged, a protestee who didn't take any on-water penalties, might acknowledge they were wrong and take a T (30%) penality.
In a rarer case, but more sportsmanlike, even if a protest weren't lodged, a boat could acknowledge their incorrect actions, and take such a penality.

Is this a bad idea for an evening beer-can series?

Thanks
Chris
Created: 21-Mar-18 20:49

Comments

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Chris, though you are in Canada, I’m sure we Yanks wouldn’t mind you borrowing our Appx V

We implement Appx V2 by itself often in SI’s. 

Ang
Created: 21-Mar-18 20:51
P
Christopher Walmsley
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Hi Angelo, Appendix V looks to be exactly what I just proposed! 

Thanks for pointing this out!

Chris

Created: 21-Mar-18 20:55
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
For an example of a nice beer can penalty system, take a look at AYC’s Frostbite Series SI 11.1 thru 11.4.   It’s a scoring-penalty-only system (no turns) with an escalating penalty based on offense and timing of the actions of the rule-breaker.   AYC uses this system for winter racing and the Wed Night Series (both beer-can flavor events). 

AYC Frostbite Series SI
Created: 21-Mar-18 21:09
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
1
Not sure where Angelo's V link went, but here is an image of US Sailing's Appendix V, which is a U.S. prescription.
RRS_App_V.jpg 241 KB
Created: 21-Mar-19 02:23
Tribhuwan Jaiswal
Nationality: India
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
Thank you Philip for posting the image of Appendix V, saves lot of time in search for the content.
I also feel that V2 clearly gives an option to  a boat  accepting its mistake in true sportsman spirit.
I would start using this in our local events here.
Created: 21-Mar-19 04:04
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Sorry  I did not indicate that you must choose “USA” under “Rx” to see the US Prescription-Appendix link I provided.  (BTW, that’s how RRoS works ... you only see those prescriptions/cases/appeals that apply to your MNA as chosen under “Rx”). 

Also, I notice this needs updating in the new quad thanks to Philips scan of the actual page.  I’ll get to that :-)
Created: 21-Mar-19 12:20
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Chris,

I'm a great fan of both Post Race Penalties and Arbitration.

Post Race Penalties encourage boats to take a penalty, after they have cooled down, and had a chance to consult the rule book.  Boats taking a penalty voluntarily is good for the sport.

Arbitration can save time and is less stressful than full protest hearings.  For club racing or beercans, where protest hearings may take place some days after the race, if you cannot do prompt arbitration immediately after the race, you can still do arbitration up to the door of the protest hearing, and it's still worthwhile, because it saves time, and rewards an unsuccessful protestee by allowing him to take a voluntary Post Race Penalty without disqualification.

You can also set up an SI t do arbitration by telephone, email or zoom, once again at the discretion of the arbitrator.

You can make Arbitration optional by using permissive language in your SI, and you can use separate SI paragraphs  to invoke Post Race Penalties and Arbitration separately.

I've used this language.

14        PENALTY SYSTEM
14.1    In addition to the penalties prescribed in RRS 44, a boat that may have broken a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 may take a 30% Post Race Penalty in accordance with RRS Appendix T.

and

following the Protests, or Hearing Requests Section

17        ARBITRATION
17.1         Arbitration may take place in accordance with RRS Appendix T.



Created: 21-Mar-20 08:59
P
Christopher Walmsley
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Thanks to those who have provided feedback.   Very helpful information.

Cheers
Chris
Created: 21-Mar-20 12:58
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
I wonder if voluntary late penalties result in gambling on outcomes, i.e., sailing on without turns when you know you have broken a rule.
Created: 21-Mar-20 22:50
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Who cares?

It's a graduated penalty:  it's more severe than an on-water penalty.

And the boat is taking it voluntarily.  That's good for the game and for sportsmanship.
Created: 21-Mar-21 00:16
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
FWIW, I really like the after race penalties. Before Appx T or V were available, we wrote something similar into our SI’s.

In my own experience, I’ve used the existence of after race penalties to highlight Rule 2 to competitors and the onus it puts upon those who know they’ve broken a rule to take a penalty (regardless if they were protested or not).   When it’s a choice of only retiring, it’s a harder sell as compared to a few places. 

After race penalties provide great opportunities to have a Basic Principles discussion. 
Created: 21-Mar-24 12:42
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