Forum: Event Management System

Standard Penalties and Measurement Penalties - Recording

P
Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
Certifications:
  • International Judge
A quick question - Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious.

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An event stipulates that there may be penalties given 'without a hearing', such as measurement penalties (either by OTW spot measurement checks or TC), and various standard penalties issued by RC or Jury/PC for other minor breaches here and there.

Where would be the best place for this kind of penalty to be awarded, and the result passed to the scorer?

Ben
Created: 21-Feb-23 13:54

Comments

Tod Sackett
Nationality: United States of America
0
I know this is not your question but I think the sport suffers when penalties are assessed with no hearing. Just my $0.02 worth. Sorry Ben to be soapboxing on your question.

Created: 21-Feb-23 14:12
Bill Visser
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
0
If on water by RC, it should be noted on Finish Sheet or Start Area RC Notes summary ... however you report information to scorer. As far as any other decisions go, their normal reporting rocedures should be followed. So long as it is properly documented it can be appealed (redress requested) after the race.

Myself, I have finish sheet listing all who cross the line in order, then at the end of  the list of finishers I then list the scoring adjustements / penalties. 
Created: 21-Feb-23 16:03
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
How do Rule 42 observers typically report disqualifications made under P2? Seems like somebody would have to keep a running tally for second and third offenses.
Created: 21-Feb-23 20:17
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
When I was sailing and judging in France they would always publish a list of all the penalties given without a hearing - this included the OCS, DNF, DNC etc. I think this is good practice especially when there are standard penalties, for instance for not signing out or back in. This informs competitors and sets the clock ticking for the time limit for any redress requests.
As for measurement issues, there used to be a time when each evening there were a string of measurement protests for minor infringements of class rules. These protests were rarely contested, and were conducted only meet formal requirements
To avoid this boring and time wasting rigmarole we use standard penalties given by the measurer, he informs the competitor on the water. If the competitor does not agree they can request redress. Much the same procedure applies at the finish of oceanic races, for instance if a measurer notes a broken seal on a heavy object that was sealed before the start. 
The whole idea is to save time and fuss on uncontested penalties.
Gordon
Created: 21-Feb-24 10:20
P
Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
Thanks Gordon,

When I was sailing and judging in France they would always publish a list of all the penalties given without a hearing - this included the OCS, DNF, DNC etc. I think this is good practice especially when there are standard penalties, for instance for not signing out or back in.

That is exactly the kind of penalty I'm talking about.  Those minor class rule infringements, sign in/out penalties etc...

My question was relating more to the racingrulesofsailing.org tool, and whether there was a good place to record such penalties in the online system.

The tool already handles 'Starting Penalties' given by the RO without a hearing, as you described.

Tim, the tool handles very well the Rule 42 'On-the-water' penalties, making tracking of second and third penalties (and displaying the info) easy and convenient for all to see.  When there is a scoring change required, the appropriate alerts are sent to the scorers etc, and the scoring page is marked in red.

Same of course with penalties imposed after a hearing which are recorded in the 'Hearing Decision' forms on this site during the hearing.  Again, the scorer is informed, and the 'Scoring Page' is marked with red.

So the tool is well configured for those kinds of penalties.

However, I don't see any similar flow for say, a standard 2-pt penalty imposed by the dock master for a boat not signing back in.

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Bill, thanks.  I guess what I'm looking for is an 'online equivalent' of the list the scoring adjustments / penalties you talk of.

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Tod, absolutely agree.  I'm very wary of SIs which take away 'rights'.  However, it is common now for some of the minor, mundane infringements to be handled in a 'standard' way without a hearing, and the onus loaded onto the competitor to complain.  So a 'Standard Penalty' list is often published.

Take a look at this document as an example...  Australian Sailing Discretionary and Standard Penalties  

(Certainly not soapboxing or hijacking the thread, Tod.  I love a good discussion on anything!!)

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So just to reiterate; the question is, is there a place on RACINGRULESOFSAILING.ORG for these kind of 'standard penalties' to be recorded by a race official, and the information flow to the scorer and the record keeping.

In the meantime, I may recommend anyone simply to use the OTW penalty function and mark the penalty as 'Other'.

Thanks all.

Created: 21-Feb-24 12:26
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
I am not sure that these standard penalties take away any competitors rights. They may be required them to file a request for redress if they disagree with the decision rather than be named as a party in an RC or TC protest. In both cases the dispute is resolved by the judges.

I would recommend that when giving a penalty following an on the water equipment inspection, for instance, the EI should ask the competitor if they accept the penalty. If they do not accept it may be better for the TC to protest. However, in that case there is the risk of a higher penalty.

Gordon
Created: 21-Feb-24 14:44
P
Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
Gordon,

Again, very valid comments, and I agree with what you say.

But I think you're missing my question.

I put this question in the Forum: Event Management System (rather than Racing Rules) because I'm looking for help with using this online tool to record the Standard Penalty.

That is, where in the online tool does the EI/TC record that Boat A was penalised for say, 'Not having a bailer [SP] - 4 pts', and how does that get to the scorer and record sheets in this online world?
Created: 21-Feb-24 22:56
P
Paul Zupan
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
0
A bit late to the thread, but we added an "other" rule to the OTW penalty section.  You can select "other" as the rule, indicate an SCP in the jury dropdown and explain the penalty in the Comments section.  It works well for specific SI rules related to measurements and outside assistance on the water.   It's not intuitive for the RC for violating rules ashore, but it's the same concept.  We're trying to avoid adding another section for standard penalties, but perhaps it's necessary.  Would appreciate feedback on the question.
Created: 21-Feb-25 19:10
P
Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
Paul,

Thanks for chipping in.  As always, you're right on point.

Interim solution as you say is to use the OTW penalty section (or handle these manually) for time being.

In terms of records and flow, I see these similar to the 'Starting Penalties', i.e. penalties imposed without a hearing, although a tool in the style of OTW Penalties would be the ultimate upgrade.

However maybe a copy of the Starting Penalty module, named Other Penalties (or 'Race Committee Penalties', or 'Standard Penalties') would be easier.

A default list could have,

SP1
SP2
SP4
etc..

With option for 'Custom Penalty/points' at the bottom of that list.

An function to upload csv with 1 column where the penalty and points are written.

Not having a bailer - 2pts

(Problem is that this may not fit nicely into the scoring panel.)

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The minimum upgrade to handle these would be to tack onto the existing 'Starting Penalties' module by renaming it 'Starting and Other Penalties' (or 'Race Committee Penalties', or 'Starting and Standard Penalties').

Then just extend the dropdown list under the existing starting penalties;

SP1
SP2
SP3
..
..
SP10


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World Sailing to eventually add SPI to the list of abbreviations in A10!! (But that's an issue for the scorer!)

All just suggestions here.  Not a major for me at the moment, but I wonder what others say.

I guess in the paper world, the penalty is  recorded on a custom form or table and passed to scorer.
Created: 21-Feb-25 22:38
P
Benjamin Harding
Nationality: Hong Kong
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
Have done some research and find these [SP]s are quite popular around the world now.

Sailwave and Topyacht both handle SP now.

We had a regatta recently, where the problem emerged.  The boat was found in breach and needed a SP.  Additionally, the OA was authorised by SI to apply that penalty, but without the online function, it had to be processed via paper and pencil.

What do y'all think?


Created: 21-Mar-02 10:27
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