Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

RRS 16.1 before start

Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
Hi everybody.
Somewthing that came to me after the webinar with D.Perry, for which I thank him again for the nice initiative.

In rule 16, the words "after the starting signal"  has been deleted, and new wording "on a beat to windward" added.

Now, say:
Black flag, - 50 seconds to start
S approaching the starting line on starboard, slightly early
P approaching the starting line on port, same timing of S boat, on collision course.

Very near to starting line:
P bears away to pass downwind to S,  RRS 10 
S also bears away,  not to get BFD, forcing S to bear much further

Before: RRS 16 not in use, no protest
Now:?  S breaks RRS 16?


Created: 21-Jan-27 12:46

Comments

Hans Vengberg
Nationality: Denmark
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
4
Hi Aldo - RRS 16.1 always apply "while racing" - 16.2 only apply on a "beat to windward"
So in your case if S gives P room to keep clear - no rule broken before the start.
That is my reading of the rule.
Created: 21-Jan-27 13:15
Peter Nielsen
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • National Umpire
0
No, because, you are not on a beat to windward until you start.
Created: 21-Jan-27 15:21
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
3
Hi Aldo,
From the wording of your question, perhaps you meant the title to be "RRS 16.2 before start."
Case 132 interprets the phrase "on a beat to windward" with respect to rule 18.1(a).  It states 
For the purpose of rule 18.1(a), which is only needed in multi-boat situations when at least one boat is in the zone, two boats on opposite tacks are considered to be ‘on a beat to windward’
(1)when the proper course for each of them is close-hauled or above, or
(2)when one or both of them have overstood the close-hauled layline to the mark and are sailing below close-hauled.

If we use the same interpretation for the purpose of rule 16.2, we can see that, as there is no  proper course for either before the start signal, the boats boats are not "on a beat to windward" as long as neither have overstood the close-hauled layline to the starting mark.

Created: 21-Jan-27 15:33
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
I agree with Hans and would add that, in this scenario, if S bears away before the start and does not give P sufficient room to keep clear, S breaks 16.1.
Created: 21-Jan-27 19:34
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Sorry guys, but.....
Hans: definition of Racing:  A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until ..... In my example we are at - 50 second from start, so  boats already racing since 3 minutes and 10 seconds

Tim: room to keep clear is where it lies my question. 
Rule 16.2 says: ....the starboard-tack boat shall not bear away if as a result the port-tack boat must change course immediately to continue keeping clear.
So P manages to keep clear, but that  "immediately" it smell of DSQ for S.
In first part of RRS 16, is mentioned ""keep clear"" only; in 16.2 the ""immediately"" is added to the ""keep clear"" requirement, and that makes me think that "keep clear" is not enough.

And this could be used as tactic to make your opponent  BFD or OCS. No risk for P to try. Either S goes OCS, or protested for 16.2, where S can be penalized or not, but never P.
Created: 21-Jan-27 20:44
Hans Vengberg
Nationality: Denmark
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
1
Yes Aldo - they are racing - that´s why 16.1 apply.
But are they on a beat to windward?
Case 132 say: "...when the proper course for each of them is close-hauled or above ...."
Definition Proper Course: "A boat has no proper course before her starting signal."
From this it follows that before her starting signal (which is the case here) a boat has no proper course and therefore cannot be on a beat to windward.
Therefore the limitation on the ROW boat in 16.2 does not apply (as it only apply if the boats are "on a beat to windward").
Created: 21-Jan-27 21:03
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Aldo, I thought Dave was pretty clear in the seminar that boats can't be "on a beat to windward" until after their starting signal, so prior to the start 16.1 is on but 16.2 is not. I think he said that's why "after the starting signal" could be removed from 16.2 when "on a beat to windward" was inserted.
Created: 21-Jan-27 21:16
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
A possible quibble though. Case 132 does not use the words "proper course." It says "when the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of all other boats is a close-hauled course or above." Which, yes, is the definition of proper course, but if that's what WS meant then why would they not use the defined term?

Is it possible that WS intends that 16.2 should be on prior to the start, if a close-hauled course is the course the boats would sail to finish as soon as possible[...] even though they have no proper course? One could say that prior to the starting signal the course a boat would sail in order to finish as soon as possible is the course that would put her on the starting line at the gun, which may be a beat to windward.

Case 132 is probably a good candidate for a revisit under the 2021-2024 rules, given that "on a beat to windward" has been removed from 42.3(c) and added to 16.2. The reference in 18.1(a) doesn't need to address whether a boat can be on a beat to windward prior to her starting signal since 18 doesn't apply at starting marks, but I think the reference in 16.2 needs clarification.
Created: 21-Jan-27 21:43
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Hi Tim,
There is a case book supplement which changes case 132 to clarify the phrase "on a beat to windward" for the purpose of rule 18.1(a).  This does use the words "proper course".
A course that a boat would sail in order to finish as soon as possible would not be one that would cause her to cross the start line before the start signal.  Therefore, S is not sailing a beat to windward and rule 16.2 does not apply.
Murray

Created: 21-Jan-28 15:23
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Sorry again to insist, but i'm thick. As a brick.

Case 132 specify "beat to windward" only as far as rule 18 is concerned.
It specifies that  "beat to windward" can also refers to a boat not sailing close hauled or above because she is, for example, beyond the layline.
She may also sailing at 90 degrees from true wind, or even more down, as long as, at that moment, she is on her proper course to round the windward mark. Not sailing at all on a course commonly defined as beat to windward, but, still, she is considered to be so, for the sake of the RRS 18.

That does not define the meaning of  "beat to windward" in general. It's not a "Definition"

For RRS 16, for what i read, and for how it has been translated in our Italian Rule Book, it just means sailing upwind.






Created: 21-Jan-29 23:15
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