Forum: Share your SI/NOR language.

SI's allowing RC's to DSQ/not-score Boats that are not entered without a hearing

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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
I've highlighted what is added in bold so it's easy to see. 

  • Approach #1: Change A5.1 to allow DSQ w/o a hearing ...

SI #.# The first sentence of RRS A5.1 is replaced by:

A boat that did not start, sail the course or finish or comply with rule 30.2 , 30.3 , 30.4, 75.1 or 78.2, or is subject to action under 76.1, or that retires or takes a penalty under rule 44.3 (a), shall be scored accordingly by the race committee without a hearing.

(Optional) SI #.# The following scoring abbreviation is added to RRS A10: NOE  Disqualification due to lack of entry (under RRS 75.1 or RRS 76.1 action) 

or alternate form of Approach #1... 

SI #.# A boat that does not comply with RRS 75.1, or is subject to actions under RRS 76.1, shall be scored accordingly by the race committee without a hearing. This changes RRS A5.1 [and RRS A10].

 [ (optional) using the scoring abbv: NOE = Disqualification due to lack of entry (under RRS 75.1 or RRS 76.1 action). ] 



  • Approach 2: Change A4 instead of A5.1 (this provides RC ability to simply not score non-entered boats). 

SI #.# The first sentence of RRS A4 is replaced by:

Each boat entered in the event, starting and finishing and not thereafter retiring, being penalized or given redress shall be scored points as follows:

or alternate form of Approach #2... 

 SI #.# A boat lacking an entry under RRS's 75.1 or 76.1 will not be scored.  This changes RRS A4. 

==============================================
Reason for SI:

RRS A4 requires, "Each boat starting and finishing and not thereafter retiring, being penalized or given redress shall be scored points ..".

Neither starting or finishing reference the entry status of a boat, therefore it's unclear that RC's can DSQ non-entered boats that start and finish without a hearing, unless the entry issue falls within RRS 78.2 (lack of "valid certificate").

The addition is this simple SI mod to A5.1 (and optional A10 abbv) allows RC's to DSQ boats that are not entered, and whose entries are incomplete or rejected via RRS 76.1.  RC's on the water must still record the finishes of those not entered.  A boat could R4R if they believed the RC was in error and have finish places restored if entry is proven.

This basically codifies what RC's are already doing in practice .. but dots the i's and crosses the t's.

Related RRoS thread: Enter the Zombies?
Created: 21-Jan-11 15:20

Comments

Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
i agree on all, even if it go, it seems, against Q&A 2018-006
i agree 
- because boats should know who's their opponents, and their score cannot change at the end of the event  (and that happened to a friend of mine in Spain; after 9 races, he was 2nd, but then 2 boats were taken out of the score, because duly registered, but never started and never paid the fee; 2 points less to the  DSQs, that included his main opponent, and he lost the podium. Rather unfair. Those 2 boats has been scored DNC for 8 races, then disappeared.)
- because I believe if a boat races, she is under the RRS, and if she breaks a rule, shall  be penalized accordingly (w or /o hearing). Not complying with 75.1 is just that: breaking a rule.
- because if RRS 78.2 already takes care of something very similar ( fail to present a valid certificate = boat is IN the event, but then DSQ) so same concept can be applied to other faults
- because if a boat should not be in the event, she must be denied the entry before the first race (RRS 76.1). If she has been warned,  and she's racing anyway, she is  IN, but then RRS 2 and possibly 69, to be presented to her Club for any deemed actions. If not warned, by OA mistake, the boat is IN, and she can be protested for RRS 75;  I would exclude RRS 2 and 69. And I would not DSQ without a hearing. 

well, i might not be right, but that's how i'd act,  if it happen to me,  as PC




Created: 21-Jan-11 18:06
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Aldo, I do not think this SI goes against the Q&A, which pertains to calculating A5.2.  A5.2 already differentiates between entered and not-entered boats by stating ...

“ ...shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series. “

The above SI’s applies to A5.1. It’s purpose is to allow RC’s to DSQ boats that are not entered without the need for a hearing .... which is what most of them are probably doing now anyway.  
Created: 21-Jan-11 21:14
Malcolm McKeag
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • National Race Officer
0
What am I missing here? If a boat has not entered a race or series she surely cannot be given a score, be it 1st or DSQ.  Nor should she - as Aldo illustrates above with his tale of retrospective scoring actions applied to boats that should never have been given scores in the first place.  It is the fundamental way in which we keep control of our events. 
Created: 21-Jan-12 12:54
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Malcom, I laid it out in the reason section.  
  1. A4 requires an RC to score boats that start and finish.  
  2. Start and finish do not require entry in the event. 
  3. Only thru a hearing can a score be made worse, unless listed in A5.1
  4. A5.1 does not list the entry rules (75.1, 76.1) in the list of actions the RC can take without a hearing. 
  5. Therefore, non-entered boats that start and finish have to be protested and have hearing to DSQ them to remove their scores.  
  6. Entry is an all or nothing condition (75.1).  A boat that does not complete ALL of an RC’s requirements is not entered, so this applies to any boat that is missing something.

Like I said, YC’s are functioning now as if the rules said what this SI allows. This is just putting those words in place.  
Created: 21-Jan-12 13:06
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
PS: Paul (on the Zombie thread) brought up a good example.  

His YC had COVID contact tracing documentation requirements as part of entry.   Though this might seem “ancillary” to the core functions of sailing and racing to a competitor (and therefore might come out and race though their entry is deficient thinking the requirement is trivial), if the RC has added this as an entry requirement ... that boat is not entered if it is not done. 

Now this boat comes out and starts and finishes.  A4 says she must be scored.  If the SI’s required this doc before racing, the boat can’t sheepishly cure this after the race.  Now the RC wants to DSQ this scored boat without a hearing. That’s what this SI allows. 
Created: 21-Jan-12 13:34
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Aldo re: “- because if a boat should not be in the event, she must be denied the entry before the first race (RRS 76.1). If she has been warned,  and she's racing anyway, she is  IN, but then RRS 2 and possibly 69, to be presented to her Club for any deemed actions. If not warned, by OA mistake, the boat is IN, and she can be protested for RRS 75;  I would exclude RRS 2 and 69. And I would not DSQ without a hearing. ”

That question is what I was getting at in Facts 3 of the Zombie thread here: 
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/803-what-is-rule-76-1s-entry-of-a-boat

Created: 21-Jan-12 15:16
Malcolm McKeag
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • National Race Officer
0
I'm afraid that if a boat sails across my finish line but is not entered in my race or series she does not get listed in the results because she is not part of that race or series because she has not entered. The requirement to enter is specified in the Notice of Race (or at least it is in my NoRs, usually under Paragraph 3 Eligibilty and Entry).  What's she going to do? Claim Redress?
Created: 21-Jan-12 15:29
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Malcom, I get what you are saying.  Certainly, RC’s all over are proceeding as you suggest. 

My point is only that it is a simple SI which codifies that RC action in the rules. Since I started this thread, I added an option to simply modify A4 as an alternate (maybe more simple) approach (above in OP).  
Created: 21-Jan-12 16:00
Malcolm McKeag
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • National Race Officer
0
Angelo: I take your point.  Certainly it is worth clarifying somewhere in the documentation that to be properly accounted for in the race or series a boat must be properly entered. You have assuredly alerted me to that requirement..
Created: 21-Jan-12 18:47
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Malcolm .. maybe something as short and simple as this ticks the box ?...  

"A boat lacking an entry under RRS's 75.1 or 76.1 will not be scored.  This changes RRS A4."
Created: 21-Jan-12 21:41
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
We use:

To be registered and scored in the event each boat owner must complete all registration steps and pay all fees on-line on the regatta website.
Created: 21-Jan-13 19:31
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Sue .. did you mean "entered" instead of "registered" in its first use?  Also, that chances A4, so might want to add that at the end. - Ang

"To be registered [entered] and scored in the event each boat owner must complete all registration steps and pay all fees on-line on the regatta website."
Created: 21-Jan-13 19:50
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Haven't had a problem using registered.  And not sure how this changes A4 as they don't get a score and are not even on the results 
Created: 21-Jan-13 20:02
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
re: " And not sure how this changes A4 "

RRS A4 says that an RC shall score boats that start and finishStart and finish do not require entry or registration in the event. Therefore, I'm suggesting that by not scoring them if not entered or registered, it changes A4.

re: "registration" in the first use ..

oh .. OK .. I thought it might have been a typo that's why I asked. FWIW, using "entered" in the first use might be tighter as "enter" is the term used in RRS 75.1.
Created: 21-Jan-13 20:15
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