Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Enough Room to Finish Race

Gulboy Guryel
Nationality: Turkey
Boat A is the leeward boat and Boat B is the windward boat. sailing to the finish line. Boat A pushes the Boat B all the way to the lay line of pin end side of finish before gybing at pin end side of finish. once gybed, Boat B become leeward and Boat A become windward. at finish line as soon as Boat A gave enough room for Boat B to enter the Finish, Boat A turned head downwind. Now. Boat A claims that Boat B was given enough room to enter the finish as that was the proper course. Boat B claims that Boat A fouled by bearing down... 
Created: 20-Oct-20 02:22

Comments

P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Like this?
image.png 407 KB


A (Yellow) overlapped outside B (Blue) when the first of them reached the zone was required to to give B mark-room (rule 18.2(b)), but not room to sail her proper course (rule 18.2(c)).

When boats gybed, A was still required to give B mark-room, but in addition, was overlapped on the same tack to windward, and required to keep clear of B (rule 11).

A gave B mark-room, then bore away causing B to bear away to avoid contact.  A did not keep clear of B.  A broke rule 11.  B broke no rules.l

On valid protest, penalise A.
Created: 20-Oct-20 03:50
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
I'd tend to agree. Even if A bore away after crossing the finish line she's still racing and rule 11 is still on. 

I'd also say that at position 2 in John's diagram Blue is entitled to come down and sail to the mark if she desires. 
Created: 20-Oct-20 04:04
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
OK, does this diagram fit better?
image.png 148 KB
Created: 20-Oct-20 04:27
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Hi Tim,

In the first diagram, at position 2, Blue is entitled to mark room.  Having mark room means that Blue is entitled to sail to the mark if that is her proper course. However, she must still keep clear of Yellow as per rule 11 and can protest Yellow if Yellow prevents her from sailing to the mark.  That being said, if Blue breaks rule 11 while she is sailing within the room she is entitled to, rule 21 exonerates her and rule 14(b) exonerates her if there is contact with no damage or injury.
Created: 20-Oct-20 04:57
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
John, that's closer to what I was thinking OP described. Yellow still breaks 11 if she bears away after finishing but while either Yellow or Blue are still racing
Created: 20-Oct-20 05:27
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
Y breaks rule 11 whether she is racing or not, while ever she is in or near the racing area (Preamble to Part 2)

Until she leaves the finishing line clear astern, she is still racing and can be penalised for breaking rule 11.

After Y leaves the finishing line clear astern, and before B does A may be interfering with a boat racing breaking rule 24.1 and penalised, but as diagrammed B takes avoiding action @4 and is probably not interfered with by Y thereafter.
Created: 20-Oct-20 06:25
Gulboy Guryel
Nationality: Turkey
0
Yellow gave enough room for Blue to travel her proper course and also to enter the mark. Yellow also needs to travel her proper course and finish the race. As soon as enough room is given to Blue to enter the line then yellow should be able to travel the closest route to finish? so I believe in case yellow gives enough room but blue insist on travelin towards yellow and pushing yellow off the line? should be foul. 
Created: 20-Oct-20 10:21
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
Gulboy Guryel,

Does the second diagram show approximately what happened?

If so: as diagrammed, after the first of the boats gybed, proper course is not a relevant consideration to either boat.

In the diagram B, entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2(b)) and having right of way boat (rule 11) is entitled to luff Y away from the finishing line until she reaches a position where her proper course (to finish soonest) is to gybe towards the finishing line, at which point she must gybe (rule 18.4), and allow Y to bear away and if necessary gybe.
Created: 20-Oct-20 11:54
Paul Hanly
Nationality: Australia
0
I would also like to know how Yellow established her overlap (as shown at position 1) with Blue? Was Yellow required not to luff up past her proper course? If so I would regard Yellow at 2 as having sailed above her proper course unless it was common in the class to sail so far above directly down wind on a run. Wouldn't most displacement sailing not go above boom perpendicular to wind?
Agree that after gybe Yellow is windward and bound by RRS 11. ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
Created: 20-Oct-20 13:00
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Dead downwind is nearly always slow
Created: 20-Oct-20 13:27
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
0
Paul, regarding your comment.  

I would also like to know how Yellow established her overlap (as shown at position 1) with Blue? Was Yellow required not to luff up past her proper course? If so I would regard Yellow at 2 as having sailed above her proper course unless it was common in the class to sail so far above directly down wind on a run. Wouldn't most displacement sailing not go above boom perpendicular to wind?

A protest committee hearing is limited to the particular "incident" alleged in a protest (see rule 62.1(b). Although A or B may have broken other rules prior to reaching the mark they are not the incident alleged in A or B's protest. The test of whether two occurrences were one or two incidents is whether the second occurrence was the inevitable result of the first. It does not appear that the occurrence at the finish mark was an inevitable result of a a possible rule 17 breach before the gybe.

Gathering facts about possible rules breaches not related to the incident alleged in a protest hearing can unnecessarily extend the hearing. It might be worth discussing amongst the protest committee members before the parties enter. But only gather evidence from the parties if the two occurrences appear to be related.

If B wishes to protest A for a breach of rule 17 then she would need to file a second protest, and must inform B that two protests will be lodged.
Created: 20-Oct-20 15:41
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Mark, given that the protests would have the same parties would you hear them together for efficiency? Or should they be separate hearings?
Created: 20-Oct-20 15:53
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
0
If you determine that they are two incidents, then two protests will be required. Rule 63.5 requires that each protest must establish validity. As you need two validity hearings I would hear them separately.

Check the Validity of the Protest or Request for Redress. (M3.1, 63.5, Case 19, 22)
  • Ask conditions at time of incident. In case relevant to validity of Part 2, 3 or 4 protest.
  • Contents; protestor & protestee identified? (61.2(a), Case 22, 80 or 62.2, Case 102)
  • Contents; if not already, identify where & when? (61.2(c), Case 22, 80 or 62.2, Case 102)
  • Was protest timely? Good reason to extend? (61.3 or 62.2, Case 102, 128, US 90, 94)
  • Hail “Protest” at first reasonable opportunity? (61.1(a), US 61, 65, 122)
  • Red flag displayed (hull length >= 6m) 1st reasonable opportunity? (61.1, Case 39, 72, 85, 104, US 66, 67, 82, 124)
  • If no hail/flag, protestee properly informed? (61.1(a)(3)&(4), Case 19, 112, 141, US 65,84)
  • Protestor involved in or saw incident? (61.1, US 116)

In other cases when two protests arise from the same incident, or from very closely connected incidents, they should be heard together in the presence of representatives of all the boats involved. See World Sailing Case 49.
Created: 20-Oct-20 16:17
Paul Hanly
Nationality: Australia
0
Thanks Mark
Created: 20-Oct-21 01:52
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