Forum: Match and Team Racing Rules

Rule 18 in match racing - when does it stop to apply? Thoughts on the new rules 2021-2024

Stavros Kouris
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
RRS 18 - When does it stops to apply.jpg 36.9 KB


The situation is the following:
Yellow enters the zone of the windward mark clear ahead of Blue. Yellow passes the mark and then without never leaving the zone luffs and tacks on starboard. When he finishes hertack, Blue's bow has crossed the extension of the line from the previous mark, so the boats are on the same leg.

According to the current rules of Appendix C " Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However it does not apply between a boat approaching the mark and one leaving it"

Q1: Can one argue that one boat is approaching and one is leaving the mark? At what point does a boat start leaving the mark, when he is on the new leg or when his stern clears the mark? Up until when a boat is approaching a mark? What is the condition at position 8?

Q2: If the above is not applicable(one boat approaching the mark and one leaving it), then rule 18 does apply? Are they both still required to leave the mark on the same side? 

Q3: What do you think about Rule 18.2(c) as changed in Appendix C.... Blue at position 8 obtained an inside overlap but from the moment the overlap began the outside is able to give mark-room... Do you think that in this case she is required to give it even though 18.2(c) only refers to when the outside boat is unable to give mark room. 

The new editon of the rules is clearer on the question if Rule 18 still apllies since 18.1 as changed in Appendix C states: " Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when the boat entitled to mark-room is on the next leg and the mark is astern of her"... so it is pretty clear that rule 18 does not apply any more....so is it just a simple port - starboard situation? What do you think?
Created: 20-Aug-20 18:11

Comments

P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
I i am having dinner and away from a rule book but the port boat  has rights under the basic rule 18 as inside boat the starboard boat has to give her room
Created: 20-Aug-20 18:24
John Christman
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Stavros - I am unable to see your diagram - would you please repost it?  Thanks.
Created: 20-Aug-20 18:49
Brent Draney
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
This is my favorite way to burn a penalty after leaving the circle MR Call E9, I believe and there is some logic that may or may not apply.


Created: 20-Aug-20 19:12
Harald Holmen Sørensen
Nationality: Norway
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
0
Hi Stevie, I don't see the whole diagram, only position 1, but I guess I understand the situation as per your description.

Q1:
- I don't think yellow is leaving the mark in the end. She was leaving it earlier, but that can change if she goes back for some reason.
- I would say you are leaving the mark when the mark no longer limits the maneuvers the boat may perform, which usually can be simplified to when you have left the mark clear astern. (Edit: Sorry, mixed this with when mark room is given...)
- A boat is approaching a mark until she is at the mark, but I don't think it's critical to define that transition.
- In position 8, it's clear that no boats are leaving the mark.

Q2:
- Yes, rule 18 applies.
- Yes, they shall both still leave the mark to starboard.

Q3:
- I believe the question is not correct, as Blue is not inside boat in position 8 (as I understand your description of the situation - Blue and Yellow pretty much bow to bow in a stb/port situation at the mark). When the mark shall be left to starboard, a boat overlapped on the starboard side of the other boat is inside boat, which in this case is Yellow.

Regards,
Harald
Created: 20-Aug-21 08:40
Stavros Kouris
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
- I don't think yellow is leaving the mark in the end. She was leaving it earlier, but that can change if she goes back for some reason.
- I would say you are leaving the mark when the mark no longer limits the maneuvers the boat may perform, which usually can be simplified to when you have left the mark clear astern.
So you would say that approaching and leaving are two concepts that can change any time?
So at position 8 what is the condition of yellow respect to the mark? approaching the mark? At the mark? Leaving the mark?

If you say that earlier yellow was leaving the mark, then at some point one boat was approaching the mark and one was leaving it...so rule 18 does not apply... I cannot see anything in the rules that turn on again rule 18, except the condition in 18.2(b) which is not applicable here since yellow never left the zone.
Created: 20-Aug-21 15:44
Harald Holmen Sørensen
Nationality: Norway
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
0
Hi Stavros!

I don't know if you changed something, but now I see the whole diagram from 1 to 8.

So you would say that approaching and leaving are two concepts that can change any time?

Yes, approaching and leaving can change. You may for example sail to the mark, away from the mark, then turn around and go back to your original zone entry position and sail towards the mark on your original leg. Then you are (again) approaching the mark. Or simpler, just away from the mark in any direction and back again.
But we can't look at one boat isolated, we have to see the two combined, whether or not the boats are in the same part of the rounding.

So at position 8 what is the condition of yellow respect to the mark? approaching the mark? At the mark? Leaving the mark?

It really doesn't make a difference in this situation. Yellow has right of way after tacking and Blue is not entitled to mark-room. Blue is apparently also given room to keep clear.

I cannot see anything in the rules that turn on again rule 18

18.1 only says that rule 18 "does not apply between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it". I doesn't say it's turned off (and stays off), which means it's on by default as long as the conditions are met.

18.2(b) does not say that 18 is turned off when a the boat entitled to mark-room leaves the zone. It only says that the original entitlement to mark room ceases, and is re-examined when the conditions for 18 again are met. It's the same condition that triggers 18 on/off both for a boat that leaves the zone and comes back, and one that turns inside the zone.

If Yellow left the zone in your example, rule 18 would have been turned off at exactly the same moment (position 4), i.e. when she was leaving the mark. Not when she left the zone... And it would be turned on again as soon as she went from sailing away from the mark to approaching the mark, just like for your original example. It's not then moment when Yellow re-enters the zone that qualifies 18 again to apply - we simply look at the conditions in 18.1.

Regards,
Harald
Created: 20-Aug-22 14:57
Phil Mostyn
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • International Judge
0
I'm inclined to the view that C2.9 - 18.1 last sentence - only extinguishes rule 18 when the two proviso's apply at the same time - that is to say; both boats are on the same leg of the course, and the mark is astern of the boat entitled to mark-room. Herewith a diagram:
image.png 170 KB

At position 4, the boats are on the same leg, but the mark is no longer astern of Yellow - it's actually ahead of Yellow at 4, even though it had been astern between 1 & 2. I think both conditions need to apply at the same time.



Created: 20-Aug-23 09:36
Stavros Kouris
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Yes, approaching and leaving can change. You may for example sail to the mark, away from the mark, then turn around and go back to your original zone entry position and sail towards the mark on your original leg. Then you are (again) approaching the mark. Or simpler, just away from the mark in any direction and back again.
So what is the criteria for you wether a boat is approaching or leaving the mark? Where she is pointing at any time? If yes whic part of the boat? the bow?
What about the following situations? Is she approaching or leaving?
 
Approaching or leaving?

At pos. 4 and 5 approaching or leaving?

I understand the concept of approaching the mark in order to round it.... up until then a boat is approaching a mark, when she has round it she is leaving the mark....and therefore can no longer approaching the mark again...

I'm inclined to the view that C2.9 - 18.1 last sentence - only extinguishes rule 18 when the two proviso's apply at the same time - that is to say; both boats are on the same leg of the course, and the mark is astern of the boat entitled to mark-room.
Phil I understand you are talking about the 2021 version... But looking at the requiremnt of the rule is only talking about the boat entitled to mark room, and is silent wether the boats are on the same leg or different leg
The rule cites:  "Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when the boat entitled to mark-room is on the next leg and the mark is astern of her. "
i. The boat entitled to mark-room (Yellow) is on the next leg according to C7.2(b) and soon after position 1 in your diagram the mark will be astern of her.... I understand from the wording used that from that time Rule 18 no longer applies. If you look up the meaning of no longer is not now as formerly; not any more. 
Created: 20-Aug-23 16:22
Brent Draney
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
While I understand the thought process and understanding how the new rules may effect changes and that we should explore them it feels like the original scenario is a bit contrived and unlikely.  I understand if you are trying to burn a penalty but if you are not and are 6 boat lengths ahead at the top mark there is 0% chance you would tack instead of rounding and trying to extend your lead.  I like the direction of figuring out the situation where the rule change may make an impact but I don't think the original description is it.  Are there other situations where we think this is a real possibility?  
Created: 20-Aug-24 02:07
Phil Mostyn
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • International Judge
0
Hi Stavros,

I think you're correct. Thanks for pointing it out to me. It's back to the drawing board for me!

Phil.
                                          

Created: 20-Aug-24 11:00
Harald Holmen Sørensen
Nationality: Norway
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
0
So what is the criteria wether a boat is approaching or leaving the mark? Where she is pointing at any time? If yes whic part of the boat? the bow?
What about the following situations? Is she approaching or leaving? I understand the concept of approaching the mark in order to round it.... up until then a boat is approaching a mark, when she has round it she is leaving the mark....and therefore can no longer approaching the mark again...

You can look at this in different ways, but in practice in MR I think you will end up on the same conclusion: It's very unlikely that this part of 18.1 will turn off 18 unless the other boat is not yet at the mark. In your original example and by your interpretation, Yellow is leaving the mark, but Blue is not approaching the mark anymore (she is at the mark and has to round it). At least when the boats later may interfere.

That part of 18.1 pretty much boils down to not giving Yellow opportunities to force penalties in situations like these:

image.png 37 KB


Regards,
Harald
Created: 20-Aug-24 12:01
Phil Mostyn
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • International Judge
0
image.png 25 KB

Hi Harald,

The dia. above is MR Call E9 which you can see is very similar to the scenarios we have been discussing. I've included it because  the current rule C2.9, 18.1 contains the same "approaching and leaving" limitation as rule 18.1 in the new rules . Nowhere in the call is there any reference to "approaching and leaving" which to me indicates that Blue in the Call was judged to be not leaving the mark. Indeed, if it were otherwise, wouldn't rule 18.1 be in conflict with the second part of rule 18.2(b)?

Certainly between position 3 & 4 Blue is passing and abreast of the mark and is entitled to mark-room according to 18.2(b). Her position in past interpretations might have been expressed as "at" the mark  I think the best that can be said of Blue at position 4 is; Blue is  about to leave the mark. I don't think you can be leaving ta mark until you have actually left it behind you and the mark is clear astern as in "Clear Astern and Clear Ahead" in the definition.

By the same logic, I think that in your second diagram, Yellow is not yet leaving the mark because it's not yet astern of her. Yellow is give-way port tack but has mark-room until her transom is past the mark - when her mark-room would be extinguished anyway.

What do you think?

Phil.


Created: 20-Aug-25 15:09
Harald Holmen Sørensen
Nationality: Norway
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
0
Hi Phil,

Thanks, good observation!

With regards to the intention of the rule and my diagram, I'm pretty sure that it's exactly these situations the rule is written for. The boats are on opposite sides of the mark, one is about to finish her mark rounding and the other is about to start her rounding. If rule 18 applies between the two, it would cause some very dangerous situations and tough borderline calls with a lot of responsibility on the umpires. The rights would change instantly for two boats going in opposite directions, only when the first boat cross a certain invisible line with no protection under rule 15. It would not be a well designed rule...

If the boat were to leave the mark clear astern in order to activate that part of 18.1, then the same part of 18.1 would be superfluous. If the mark is left clear astern, then that boat has passed the mark hence she has been given mark-room, which again means she no longer has no protection under rule 18. I think this "proves" that a boat doesn't have to leave a mark clear astern to be classified as leaving a mark. And the two words "approaching" and "leaving" rather have to be examined combined and in the right context. Also, if the intention was to leave the mark clear astern, shouldn't the wording be "and one that has left it" instead of "and one leaving it"? Ie. leaving is the process that happens before you have left something...

In MR Call E9, the boats are on the same leg and on the same side of the mark. It's not obvious that one boat is approaching the mark and one is leaving it. They are both in the same part of the mark rounding, so rule 18 applies. I think this is logic, and the rules and calls are consistent.

Regards,
Harald
Created: 20-Aug-25 20:18
Harald Holmen Sørensen
Nationality: Norway
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
0
In lack of any WS cases or calls that highlights this question, I found this in the RYA Case Book:

image.png 94.7 KB


Blue never left the mark clear astern, but was leaving the mark according to RYA - despite the fact that she sailed towards it in the end. I think this goes along with  the question on whether the boats are in the same part of the rounding when they interfere. And in order to revert your status of "leaving the mark", you have to sail back to the original side of the mark, and turn towards the mark there (which happens in team racing).

Harald
Created: 20-Aug-25 22:21
Stavros Kouris
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
In both your diagrams I would say that Yellow is still entitled to mark room (Room to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark on the required side) 
If a boat is considered leaving the mark from position 3 in your diagrams then according to the last sentence of rule C2.9 (18.1), rule 18 will not apply even though the mark-room to which Yellow is entitled under the definition is room to sail her proper course ..... which can also include a gybe (in diagram 1). Even worse in diagram 2 Yellow would not even have the right to luff to close hauled (which is her proper course), since she has to keep clear from Blue.
Also, if the intention was to leave the mark clear astern, shouldn't the wording be "and one that has left it" instead of "and one leaving it"? Ie. leaving is the process that happens before you have left something...
In my opinion the intention of the word leaving is to indicate that is an action longer than an instance, but unfortunately there is nowhere written where it does begin....


Created: 20-Aug-26 09:03
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
Do not forget you can be leaving a mark and then turn and create a new RRS relationship if you go back on a course that gives the mark a required side again.
Created: 20-Aug-26 09:35
Harald Holmen Sørensen
Nationality: Norway
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
0
If a boat is considered leaving the mark from position 3 in your diagrams then according to the last sentence of rule C2.9 (18.1), rule 18 will not apply even though the mark-room to which Yellow is entitled under the definition is room to sail her proper course ..... which can also include a gybe (in diagram 1). Even worse in diagram 2 Yellow would not even have the right to luff to close hauled (which is her proper course), since she has to keep clear from Blue.

I guess it's irrelevant what mark-room includes when considering whether rule 18 applies at all.
If two boats approach the mark on the same side, then 18 applies and the boat is of course entitled to room to gybe around the mark.

It's logic that two boats sailing in 100% opposite directions of a mark like this are classified as one leaving it and one approaching it. We can even remove the mark from the drawing board in the final position in the two examples, because it no longer limits the maneuvers of Yellow.

In my opinion the intention of the word leaving is to indicate that is an action longer than an instance, but unfortunately there is nowhere written where it does begin....

It doesn't have to define where it begins, because I think it's not a classification of a single boat, but a comparison of two. These two boats are one leaving it and one approaching it, and in my opinion quite easy to identify... If they wanted "leaving the mark" to be one specific point, they would have clarified it :-)

Harald
Created: 20-Aug-26 17:20
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