Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

An unusual maneuver

Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
In position N°2 does rule 24 apply to Yellow ?

LLEGO2.jpg 379 KB
Created: 20-Jun-18 14:37

Comments

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
2
Catalan, I think you have to add a captain to that RC ship!

image.png 278 KB
Created: 20-Jun-18 14:42
Craig Evans
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Umpire In Training
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0
Looking at you diagram as the RC boat has a blue flag, is this the finishing line? Going by the tracking line, it might be yellow  has not cleared the finishing line so she is still racing? Rule 16 may be applicable.
Created: 20-Jun-18 14:56
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
2
I HAVE MILLION OF DOUBTS....HERE IS ONE OF THEM

In position N°2, Yellow has finishted ?
And here i have these two points:

1°) DEFINITION: Finish 
A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side. 
However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (c) continues to sail the course. 

2°) Rule 28...........After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely. 


For me, 16.2 aplies to Yellow
Created: 20-Jun-18 15:06
Michael Better
Nationality: United States of America
0
Assuming this is a finish line, it seems to me that either RRS 24.1 or RRS 24.2 would apply, depending on whether yellow has cleared the line or not.

Created: 20-Jun-18 15:27
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
5
In position 2, Yellow has not cleared the line. She has finished but is still racing. Rule 24.1 does not apply.
It could be argued that as Yellow has finished:
- she no longer has a proper course
- she is no longer sailing on a leg of the course. In which case she has an obligation not to interfere with the boat beating to the finish.

Yellow is on starboard, Green boats are on port, and are keep clear boats.
Yellow, RoW, changes course and must give the Green boats room to keep clear under rule 16.1. It looks very much as  though Yellow has not given room to keep clear.

Gordon
Created: 20-Jun-18 15:32
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Although I'm not a fan of throwing it around lightly, I'd say that if Y's intention in sailing that course is to disadvantage the green boats (handicap race perhaps, or to disadvantage one of the green boats over the other to help Y's series score) she's flirting with a Rule 2 violation, whether 16.1 comes into play or not. 

If Y's choice of course is determined by wind, current, etc. then as long as she gives room to keep clear she's fine. In the diagram, it does look like Y would need to continue to bear away and pass astern of the green boats to give room.
Created: 20-Jun-18 15:49
Anna Cuccia
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Race Officer
1
Good afternoon to everyone,
Please, let me add only a minor comment. The yellow boat has finished but she is still racing according to the following two definitions: 

Finish - A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finishedif after crossing the finishing line she(a)takes a penalty under rule 44.2, (b)corrects an error under rule 28.2made at the line, or (c)continues to sail the course.

Racing - A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishesand clears the finishing line and marksor retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponementor abandonment.

I hope this can help to clarify.

Anna

PS
The yellow duck is too nice! :)
Created: 20-Jun-18 15:49
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
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-1
Monkey wrench.
Created: 20-Jun-18 17:29
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
1
In the diagram, it does look like Y would need to continue to bear away and pass astern of the green boats to give room.

On further consideration I think I take this comment back. If Y steadies on course at 2, both green boats could keep clear by tacking. They may or may not be able to make the pin and finish on starboard but it's not Y's obligation to allow them to do so.

But again I think Y would have to justify her course with some reason other than just mucking with the green boats and delaying their finishes.
Created: 20-Jun-18 18:44
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
As I see it :
Yellow breaks RRS24 if this is a finish line.  If, as in the 2nd diagram , the P flag is up so they are racing and there is more than a minute till the start, Yellow is Stbd ROW boat and as long as she abides by RRS16 then the 2 green boats must keep clear.  
Created: 20-Jun-18 21:10
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Sue, for the finish scenario are you thinking 24.1 or 24.2?
Created: 20-Jun-18 21:13
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • Regional Judge
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1
24.2 as yellow while finished, is still racing till she clears the finish line.
Created: 20-Jun-18 21:57
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
OK. So she's "on a different leg" than the boats still finishing. And after finishing she no longer has a proper course, yes?

So we're left with is it reasonably possible for Y to avoid interfering with the other boats. I think the answer would depend on wind and current. If it's a drifter with adverse current and Y just barely managed to poke her nose over the finish line, maybe not.
Created: 20-Jun-18 22:15
Anders Rydlöv
Nationality: Sweden
Certifications:
  • National Judge
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0
I suggest that 24.2 doesn´t apply. Meaning yellow is under 16.1 and nothing but 16.1 prevents her to "hunt" like the drawn line is indicating (?). You may use rules to your advance so no rule2 either. 
Created: 20-Jun-18 22:52
Michael Better
Nationality: United States of America
1
Why would 24.2 not apply? Are you suggesting that a boat that has finished is still sailing the previous leg of the course? At what point would that boat stop sailing the final leg of the course?
Created: 20-Jun-19 01:02
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
2
The original case is with BLUE FLAG...so a Finish line.
Created: 20-Jun-19 01:26
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
To me, Yellow breaks rules 16 & 24

a)
Yellow has finished:
- she no longer has a proper course
- she is no longer sailing on a leg of the course.

b)
 Yellow has not cleared the line,
- she is still racing

c)
16.1
When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.

Yellow is on starboard, Green boats are on port, and are keep clear boats.
Yellow, RoW, changes course and must give the Green boats room to keep clear under rule 16.1.
It looks very much as  though Yellow has not given room to keep clear.

d)
24.2
If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is  sailing on another leg



LLEGO2a.jpg 752 KB
Created: 20-Jun-19 11:12
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
1
Assuming that Y steadies on course at 2 (or possibly even if she continues to bear away), I don't see a rule 16 breach. There is plenty of room for the green boats to tack and keep clear. Although that may prevent one or both from laying the finish line, Y only owes them room to keep clear, not mark room.

Whether Y broke 24.2 to me still depends on whether it was reasonably possible (given wind, current, etc.) for Y to avoid interfering.

I think I'm onboard with the idea that if the green boats are sailing the final leg of the course and Y is sailing no leg after finishing, they can be regarded as being on "different legs"
Created: 20-Jun-19 13:27
Ant Davey
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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1
I'm with Gordon and Tim's first post on this one. (Disagree with the post above about room for the leeward boat to tack.)  Y is clearly still racing and her intention, unless she continues to bear away, is to interfere with the green boats.  Case 127 helps a lot here.  Y has finished but not cleared the finish line.  She is on the course, so still racing.  Case 127 says: A boat clears the finish line and marks when the following two conditions are met: no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line, and no finishing mark is influencing her choice of course.
Her course appears to be to get the green boats to tack and sail outside the finishing mark, so the mark is clearly influencing her choice of course.  While the windward green boat could possibly tack and clear the mark, it appears to me fairly clear that once the leeward green boat has room to tack she would be sailing directly at the mark with little or no chance of avoiding it.  Hitting a mark is unseamanlike, so Y definitely gets considered for Rule 2,  on top of breaking 16.1 and 24.2.  The only argument against Rule 2 would be if that course influences her position relative to one or other of the green boats in the race or series - though the unsportsmanlike manoeuvre forcing unseamanlike behaviour on the leeward green boat still stands.),
Created: 20-Jun-20 15:54
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
Assuming we all are in agreement that Yellow has finished but not cleared the finish line, so is still racing. See Case 127.

Then to break rule 24.2 we must conclude that "Yellow who was not sailing her proper course, interfered with Green who was sailing on another leg of the course."

I have two problems with concluding that Yellow broke rule 24.2.
  1. If Yellow was sailing on another leg of the course from Green, what leg was she on? The first sentence requires Yellow to be on a different leg of the course, otherwise rule 24.2 does not apply?
  2. What is Yellow's proper course? The definition of proper course says "A boat has no proper course before her starting signal." The second sentence requires that Yellow not to be sailing her proper course, otherwise rule 24.2 does not apply.
Created: 20-Jun-20 18:44
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark .. I'm game .. I'll take a swing at those pitches ... 

If Yellow was sailing on another leg of the course from Green, what leg was she on? The first sentence requires Yellow to be on a different leg of the course, otherwise rule 24.2 does not apply?

Yellow has finished her leg of the course.  Green has not.  Therefore Yellow is not sailing on the same leg as Green.  I'd argue the absence of a thing is a different thing when comparing it to the presence of a thing.  They are different legs because they are not the same legs.  It is a semantic hole to fall into for sure, but I could certainly see a PC using my logic above and an Appeals committee going along with it. 

What is Yellow's proper course? The definition of proper course says "A boat has no proper course before her starting signal." The second sentence requires that Yellow not to be sailing her proper course, otherwise rule 24.2 does not apply.

You've flipped the logic of the language in Rule 24.2.  It states .. "However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course.".  As you state, Yellow doesn't have a Proper Course, therefore she can't be sailing her proper course, therefore the rule applies to her.  This sentence is an exclusion based on a test .. not an inclusion based on a requirement.

Ang
Created: 20-Jun-20 18:58
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Since the definition of proper course includes "in order to finish as quickly as possible", logically a boat which has already finished (and is still racing) cannot have a proper course. 

I think there's potential ambiguity in the pre-start situation (explicitly resolved by the definition), but no ambiguity in the after finishing situation so it doesn't need to be explicitly discussed in the definition.

Ant, I still disagree that it's entirely clear from the information given that it's Y's intent to interfere with the green boats, I'd need to know more. Suppose, for example, it's a light air day with current running from upper right to lower left in the diagram. Y just barely pokes her nose over the line to finish. To try to continue to windward she would risk being swept into the pin by the current, and a penalty turn and re-finish in those conditions would be disastrous. So it may not be reasonably possible for Y to avoid interfering with the green boats. I'd need to hear more about that to conclude that Y broke 24.2
Created: 20-Jun-20 20:12
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
1
I'll respectfully disagree.

Yellow was sailing a course to clear the finish line marks so is still on the last windward leg of the course.

Case 126 says For the purpose of determining whether rule 24.2 applies to an incident, a boat is sailing on the leg which is consistent with her course immediately before the incident and her reasons for sailing that course..

Case 127 says A boat clears the finishing line and marks when no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line, and no mark is influencing her choice of course. Until that occurs she is still on the last leg of the course.

If Yellow is still on the windward leg then she breaks rule 16.2.




Created: 20-Jun-20 20:26
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
I take issue with a jury deciding on its own the intent of a competitor.
The intent was not in the facts found.
Any move in that direction suggests bias and unsportsmanlike conduct of the jurors.
Created: 20-Jun-20 20:30
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Phil, I agree with you. 

I think the investigation I'd want is more toward "was it reasonably possible for Y to avoid interfering?" The info given so far doesn't definitively establish that.

But I'd also say that if Y was foolish enough to say that she took that course in order to embarrass one or both green boats for her advantage, that expression of intent would settle 24.2 and potentially rule 2 for me.
Created: 20-Jun-20 20:44
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
16.1 and 16.2 apply, same leg, different leg, or no leg.
Created: 20-Jun-20 21:16
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark, I get what you are saying and your position might carry the day.  I think using both of those Cases is a bit of a stretch. 

Let's take stock on that which I think we agree ...
  1. Yellow has no Proper Course after her bow crosses the finish line
  2. Yellow has finished
  3. Yellow is still racing until she clears the finish line and is no longer influenced by the marks.

So, we are just down to the "leg issue" I think.  I see clearing the finish-line as a separate and distinct element from sailing the leg.  I see Proper Course and "sailing a leg" intertwined in that you are sailing from Point A to Point B.  When clearing the line, a boat isn't sailing from A to B, but rather sailing away from something in any direction it wants.  She could do a 180.. luff into the wind and let wind and current push her back .. or drive straight through.

All that said, I think you've got good arguments on your side.
Created: 20-Jun-20 21:50
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
Does yellow break rule 24.2 in the situation below?

Given the opinions stated in this thread that: (which I don't agree with)
  1. Yellow has no Proper Course after her bow crosses the finish line
  2. Yellow is sailing on another leg.

You must conclude that "Yellow who was not sailing her proper course, interfered with Green who was sailing on another leg of the course. Yellow broke RRS 24.2." I disagree with this conclusion.

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The definition says "A boat has no proper course before her starting signal" it is silent as to what happens after finishing.
Created: 20-Jun-20 23:42
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Mark, I think there's no need in the definition. A boat which has already finished cannot have a proper course to finish as quickly as possible. 

But I'm OK with the idea that a boat remains on the last leg of the course after finishing, until she is no longer racing. Especially in light of your (very common) scenario above.
Created: 20-Jun-21 01:12
Ant Davey
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Judge
  • Umpire In Training
0
Hi Tim,
I agree, we don't have any knowledge about the intention of Y in sailing that course.  But we don't have any facts found.  All we can do is surmise on the balance of probability, that Y is 1) deliberately interfering with one or both green boats, or 2) going to continue to bear away, or 3) is behaving in an unseamanlike manner by choosing a course that makes the leeward green boat tack to hit the mark (my interpretation of the diagram).
So, all we are really doing is examining which rules might be relevant, based on the facts eventually found.
If we go with Mark's argument that she is sailing to clear the finish line and is still on the same leg then 16.1 applies.
Would anybody who is on a racing rules committee like to submit this to WS for an answer to whether Y is still on the same leg?
Created: 20-Jun-21 08:12
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark, in response to your drawing.

To analyze this, I would take the positions of the boats back 1/4 BL to the position [an instant before] that Yellow’s bow touches the line. At that point she is sailing her PC and ROW. 

I could argue that at that moment, it is not reasonably possible to her to avoid interfering  with the other boats. Her reasonable option is to continue on her current course as the closest boat is on a T-bone course 3/4 BL away. 
Created: 20-Jun-21 11:35
Anders Rydlöv
Nationality: Sweden
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
As a sailor it´s a great thing that rules still apply til you cleared the line. Nobody, I say, would consider the boat that finishes to switch to another "leg". It doesn´t work semantically either. 24.2 is covering a different situation: when boats converge one approaching and one leaving a mark. Thanks Mark for doing the argumentation for me!  The second picture was exactly what I had in mind clearifying that 24.2 doesn´t apply. But It´s obvious the jury decision may vary in such a hearing... if we will have one.
Created: 20-Jun-21 21:15
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0

How do you see this ?
Yellow has finished, is still RACING, has ROW for rule 10 and rule 19 aplies



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Created: 20-Jun-22 13:08
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