Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Appendix P rule P4

Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
Good day (afternoon?) to all.

Just your confirmation: If a Judge wrongly give a yellow flag to a boat when "oscar" is on (so there was no infringement), and say it was the second yellow that boat takes, and the boat:
case 1) do not penalize because she think the penalization is improper/ Judge give a DNE. Boat ask redress under P4 The yellow flag is cancelled but the DNE remain?
case 2) she promptly retire (and consequently get a RET). Boat ask redress under P4 . The yellow flag is cancelled, but again the RET remain? 

The Yellow flag is, for me, a clear improper action with significantly worsening the boat score.
Case one, i can understand it; boat should penalize (or not start during a wrong black flag , for instance,  and then get redress)
Case two, is it ever possible that the boat have to keep that (improper, i believe) RET? No redress?

Thanks
Created: 20-May-29 10:53

Comments

Charles Darley
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
0
Not a situation of which I have experience.  My view, if the boat retires as she is required to do under P2.2, then she may request redress which should be granted.  The redress, cancellation of the yellow flag and an equitable award of points for the race.  Perhaps average of her other points for the series before discards.  If she continues to sail, then the yellow flag should be cancelled (so she is still on 1 flag) but the DNE under P2.2 applies because she did not incur that penalty through no fault of her own.
Created: 20-May-29 11:26
Rick Myers
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Umpire
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
This issue can be solved before the event by removing P2.2 and P2.3 in the sailing instructions.  These are inappropriate in any event other than the most serious of competitions.   It is a crime to have to send some junior sailor home after one day of the opti midwinter fun bowl because of something like this.  
Created: 20-May-29 11:37
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Mr. Darley, that's what i think it should be: redress (score adjustment)  should be granted. 

But...  the Judge Manual, August 2019, Page I 7, states:
"" P4 limits the possibility of redress for action taken under P1 but not for adjusting a boat's score under P2""

I asked around and the reply i get is: Redress is only to make the yellow flag not to account in the number of infraction, but the score (RET) remains, cannot be adjusted.

Looks too much unfair, but... how do you read that sentence in the Judge Manual?


Created: 20-May-29 11:52
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
I read that quote from the manual as meaning that there are limits on giving redress for an improper action in giving a penalty, but when the conditions for giving redress are met then there are no limits on any re-adjusting of the score. Rule P4 makes no mention of what redress can be given if the conditions are met.

So, if a boat is given a penalty when the O flag is displayed this is an improper action for which redress can be given under P4.

An improper action by the PC is the first of of 3 conditions that have to be met concerning redress.

The second is whether a boat's score has been made significantly worse by the improper action. RET is significantly worse than a race score based on a finishing position so this condition is met.

Finally, there is the the 'through no fault of her own' condition. A boat that retires after being given an improper penalty is acting in accordance with the rules, if this is her second penalty. She has not broken rule 2 and she has complied with rule P2.2. She has made no fault. The PC can therefore consider redress which may be to award average points.

However, if the boat does not retire and is scored DNE then her score has been made significantly worse, at least in part, by her own actions in not complying with P2.2. In which case the 'through no fault of her own' condition is not met, and so there are no grounds for redress.

In reply to Rick, here, at youth events, we usually delete P2.3 and P2.2 applies to the second and all subsequent penalties. This retains a srious penalty for more than one infringement, without eliminating them. Merely giving repeated penalties under P2.1 does not have the same deterrent effect.

Gordon



Created: 20-May-29 12:35
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
1
Redress does seem to be appropriate, as the exception in P4 mentions failure to take the Oscar into account.
Created: 20-May-29 12:37
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
1
Thanks, Gordon, very clear. And feeling better.
Created: 20-May-29 13:51
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Another situation:
Boat get a (undue) yellow flag under Oscar.
Boat do not penalize.
My point of view: 
- boat get a protest for RRS 2 not complying with a Judge instruction, DNE 
- ON the other hand, I would give redress in taking out the yellow flag from the recon of the yellows, if it's the first one (not for her fault, improper action, and significantly worsening its score, in the sente that if she's having  a yellow flag,  she will have to retire instead of 2 turns)

What's your opinion?

Created: 20-Jun-01 20:06
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
What would happen if you ignored the matter. I doubt is another boat would be in time to protest. If they said the jury should protest they do not have to so so no redress. In any event in this instance redress could be to let the scores stand. An unusual result which strange but the result seems fair. 
Created: 20-Jun-01 22:23
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Michael, sorry,  I do not get it. 

Yellow flag is given, so the boat should penalize, whether the yellow flag is  due or not. 
Oscar is on, so the yellow was not due: it means the boat, by not taking the penalty, breaks P2, though she did not break RRS 42.

A colleague opinion is that the boat should be penalized for not taking the penalty ( P2 or even RRS 2 for deliberately ignoring  a Judge instruction, protest by the same Judge), but he also say that the yellow is till to be counted in the number of time the boat takes the yellow flag.. 

My point is: a boat can be penalized for what she did, but cannot penalized for what she did not do. So, not having broke RRS 42, i do not think is fair to keep that yellow flag in the account. 

Say it's the first yellow, next yellow she have to retire, instead of 2 turns.  

That was my question.

Thanks again





Created: 20-Jun-02 07:41
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
My omission solves all your problems. I am not saying it is correct it just works. Others will no doubt comment. 
Created: 20-Jun-02 08:13
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
I some ways it depends on the context.
With an experienced sailor at a top class regatta - the sailor should know the rules, he should know that the correct procedure is to take the penalty then demand redress. NO penalty taken, DNE scored, no redress - see my previous post.
A less experienced sailor, local racing  - talk to the sailor, apologise, remind him/her of the rules then do not log the penalty. However, the sailor must be made aware that he has been let off, and nether they or their support team should make any public statement concerning the incident.
I have done both!
If the sailor uses speech that is more than robust language suitable for a maritime environment or raises questions regarding the competence or parentage of the judges then the DNE should be applied and the judges may consider calling a hearing under rule 69.

Created: 20-Jun-02 11:58
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Michael, thanks; I read over and over your first comment and, finally, i get it (thought my english was better).
Gordon, thanks for the clarification and advice. Sorry to keep asking but my doubt is still there:  boat penalize,  and get redress,  I had a debate with a fellow judge, more experienced than myself,  where he insisted the redress should be given for score only, but yellow flag remains in the account. I don't see the logic in it.


Created: 20-Jun-03 18:11
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
If the boat receive a flag then.
1. Did no penalty  -  he cannot get a points redress, as the penalty is because he did not respond. He can however have the number of the flag rescinded as this part he was not partially at fault over.
2. Did take a penalty. - Then he can get redress over the points and the flag number.

Look in the Case book on the scenario of Redress when given an incorrect black flag. Case 96.
Created: 20-Jun-04 10:39
Aldo Balelli
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
YEAH!!!  That matches with my feelings !!.
Thank you soooo much. Very helpful.
Created: 20-Jun-04 10:50
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