Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

"barging" (some animations)

David Chudzicki
Nationality: United States of America
I made some animations to help some friends explain "barging" at the start. I thought other folks here might like them too: http://david-sailing.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/barging.html.

The goal of these notes was to help clear up some rules confusion around who has what responsibilities at the start near the committee boat.
Created: 20-May-28 12:28

Comments

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
David, I like your animations ... they are simple and clear so I think well suited to your target audience. 

That said, I think you should and could be more specific in your descriptions about how the rules apply, without necessarily having to go to the sparsely worded format you’ve seen so often here. 

For instance, in your first animation you say Red “has rights”.  What rights and what conditions are they dependent on?

PS: Dick Rose wrote a Sailing World article about barging scenarios and differentiating between conditions (a Google search should find it).  You might want to read through those to see how he explained it for guidance. 
Created: 20-May-28 13:16
Dan Stanford
Nationality: Canada
0
So I am the leeward boat and I can see this developing so I holler leeward at the barger, do I need to announce that I intend to close the door? If I do announce this does it preserve my right or do I need to close the door to assert it? If I do announce it and then don't due to being early is that a problem? 
The reason for this kind of pedantic question is that there will be a point where the boat leeward of you will likely move up if you close the door too early and I could get squeezed out. We would all be above the layline and barging in this scenario. 
Thanks for this, it is great to see the animations. 
Dan 
Created: 20-May-28 13:23
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Umpire
1
I like those animations!  Following Angelo's lead, I'd change "both boats have kept clear of each other" to "Green has kept clear of Red."  Red is not obliged to keep clear.  Also, you might want to mention that Red doesn't change course toward Green, as that's the critical distinction between this scenario and "Too late".  

I particularly like the fact that you say things like "no boat broke a rule" instead of "Green is barging" or "room freely given," which are concepts nowhere presented in the rulebook.  

Responding to Dan, you don't need to announce anything, but it sure helps to do so, if only to keep everybody safe.  However, the hail makes no difference in the rules that apply.  In your words, announcing your intent does not "preserve your rights" to close the door -- you actually have to do so early enough so that the windward boat can keep clear when you change course.  If you do have a boat to leeward of you, it makes no difference whether you luff up to "shut the door" or not -- she should luff you and you'll have to luff to keep clear of her, anyway.  
Created: 20-May-28 14:10
John Christman
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
1
Very nice animations.

For barging I have often used the analogy that you are allowed to close the door but you can't shut it on their foot.

In the 'too late' scenario you state that Green has broken no rule.  I don't think that is quite correct. Green has broken rule 11 as she is still a windward boat required to keep clear but is exonerated under 64.1(a).  She may have also broken 31 and 14 but may again be exonerated.
Created: 20-May-28 15:18
Greg Dargavel
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
1
So Dan, as always " it depends". Let me take off my judge hat and put on my driver hat.... I will always try to indicate to the barging boat that I intend to "close the door". I think it is safer if that boat knows my intentions. (Also if it gets into the room I'm showing my awareness of the developing situation in case I have to avoid and observed RRS 14.) If I don't  close the door there is no issue... I intended to, but circumstances changed ( as they do quickly at the start) and I decided not to. I want him to know I'm intending on closing the door because I need to do it in a way  and early enough that allows him an "escape route" ( normally to head up and peal off by tacking at the committee boat). How much time and space....it depends.... types of boats, sea/wind conditions, etc.  Nothing definitive because that is the nature of our sport, just some thoughts from another competitor. 
Created: 20-May-28 16:16
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
David .. tagging-onto to Rob, Greg and John's comments, these scenarios come down to Rule 16 .. if it applies or not .. and if it applies, when.  I think it's important to find a way to work that into your discussion, maybe at the very beginning and then comparing and contrasting from there.

Also, your friends might take away from your animations that the Windward (W) boat must actually be physically between the RC and the Leeward (L) boat to be "too late" in her turn.  The point Greg and John are making I think is that this is not the case.  IMO, your "shut the door" scenario is really close to being "too late" depending upon several factors .. 

  1. conditions 
  2. speed of boats 
  3. turning radius of the windward-boat at her speed in the conditions 
  4. separation and nature of the bow/stern overlap between W and L to the extent that L's proximity slows W's ability to turn quickly due to her stern-swing being limited by L's physical presence.

I guess what I'm suggesting is at the end of these 4 clear animations you've provided, you could do another "also too late" one, where L starts her turn before W is between L and the RC, but it is too late for W to make her turn.  You'd end up with 4 fairly black-n-white scenarios and then one grey one.
Created: 20-May-28 17:41
Geoff Webber
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
0
I'm assuming that the same applies having 'run down the line' having arrived early for the start leward can luff and put windward over the line?
There is one other situation that I have used (and I'm assuming I'm correct)..
I am early for the start, there is a good breeze blowing.
There is no-one beneath me.
I gybe and tack, and am now hard on the wind, all the windward boats, who have arrived late and are reaching must go up, and go about if the Committee boat is in their way.
Obviously for this to work, I cannot do this so late that the reachers have no water to avoid the Committee boat.

Thoughts?
Created: 20-May-29 11:31
Greg Dargavel
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Geoff, remember to be sure you have established overlap and give windward an opportunity to respond in your not uncommon manoeuvre.
Created: 20-May-29 11:37
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Geoff, answers inline. 

I'm assuming that the same applies having 'run down the line' having arrived early for the start leward can luff and put windward over the line?

Yes, as long as you change course such that you do not break 16 and you do not push her into objects

There is one other situation that I have used (and I'm assuming I'm correct)..
I am early for the start, there is a good breeze blowing.
There is no-one beneath me.
I gybe and tack, and am now hard on the wind, all the windward boats, who have arrived late and are reaching must go up, and go about if the Committee boat is in their way.  Obviously for this to work, I cannot do this so late that the reachers have no water to avoid the Committee boat.

Yes, but also you must complete your tack (reach a close-hauled-course) onto starboard before you luff up.  You are the keep-clear boat under 13 until then. 
Created: 20-May-29 11:41
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Umpire
0
I'm now taking off MY judge hat and talking as a sailor.  In many cases, it doesn't pay to "shut the door" on the barging boat.  On the boat I sail on, our goal is to win the race, not to make sure the barging boat pays for her error.  if Red is on time for the start and luffing up to force Green the wrong side of the committee boat will cost her even one second, she should almost never do so.  That one second can make all the difference in controlling the boats to leeward and in keeping a lane of clear air off the start.  Although it seems as if Red wouldn't want Green on her hip at the start, the fact is, if the boats are anything like the same speed, Green will be toast within a couple of boatlengths.  So, if you're Red, think twice before ruining your start to squeeze Green out.  The mistake Red made in David's "Lets them in" scenario (#2) wasn't that she let Green in; it's that she's apparently in the second row at the start!

Of course, if Red is early as she approaches the line, or if letting Green in would mean fouling a third boat to leeward, or if Green is a bigger, faster boat, then it might be worth Red's while to luff up before she gets to the committee boat and maybe slow a little, then reach down and get a clean, fast start.  Merely wanting to go right early in the first leg is generally not sufficient reason to screw around with Green -- if Red lets her in, Green will either fall behind or tack away right after the start, and Red can tack when she wants to.
Created: 20-May-29 23:53
David Chudzicki
Nationality: United States of America
0
Thanks for the comments, everyone! I'm really sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread. I think I need to tweak my email settings or something.

Rob: Yep, a lot depends on the circumstances. I didn't mean to suggest you should always shut the door. But one factor you don't mention is the option to tack: I think in most of the races I sail, being right at the boat with the option to tack unhindered is often worth a small delay (whether 1s is worth it or not will depend...). Your other clarifications are great too: My "Green has kept clear of Red" is silly since Green doesn't need to keep clear. (I should say "Green avoided contact", which is her rule 14 obligation.)

And yeah, thanks for pointing out that "barging" isn't in the rules -- my pet peeve about people yelling "no barging!" is a lot of why I made these drawings.

Angelo: Thanks, you're right that it might be too late even earlier. I usually sail slow boats with big rudders. :-) And yeah, I should be more specific about how the rules apply. I think this is probably the article you're talking about: https://www.sailingworld.com/how-to/how-rules-work-start/

John's right of course that in "too late", Green has broken rule 11 but is exonerated.
Created: 20-Jul-07 14:16
David Chudzicki
Nationality: United States of America
0
I think we'll mostly use these drawings in slides in a "Learn to Race" class, so there'll be a chance to discuss these nuances live. The improvements suggested are all great -- I'll definitely include them if I end up cleaning this up and publishing as a blog post or something like that.
Created: 20-Jul-07 14:19
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