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I'm trying to think through the implications of the fact that this rule only applies to a boat that is fetching the mark after tacking. It seems kind of odd.
In the following hypothetical, yellow is in a bad spot approaching the mark: Ducking would mean ducking the entire fleet. So yellow tacks before the lay line (assume yellow wouldn't be able to shoot the mark even in the absence of other boats) and since 18.3 doesn't apply, luffs up blue almost to a stop (but both boats retain some steerage, and neither boat goes past head-to-wind).
At that point, blue is no longer fetching the mark, and I'm not sure what happens next. Maybe the other boats can't get to the mark on this tack either with blue and yellow in the way, so they tack to port.
If you scroll through the thread near the end, you will find a Rule 18.3 history from Rob Overton, as well as a discussion of "fetching". - Ang
Created: 20-Feb-25 14:07
David Chudzicki
Nationality: United States
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Angelo: Thanks, that thread is great and right on point for my question! Especially the last few comments with you, Rob Overton, and Justin Scott.
It doesn't really sound like there's any disagreement about the rules -- maybe just some disagreement about how common this situation is, whether it's a problem, and how cautious the tacker should be about a possible ruling that they really were fetching the mark.
Created: 20-Feb-25 15:20
Phil Mostyn
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
1
The diagram depicts Yellow in a common scenario - able to fetch the mark at position 2 by continuing to shoot the mark and bear away to pass the mark on the required side without tacking. I’m confident that confronted with facts found that reflect the positions in the diagram, a jury would promptly conclude that rule 18.3 does apply.
However, had Yellow tacked further to leeward than illustrated, and it turned out she was unable to pass the mark without tacking, the precise rules that applied would depend on what happened after position 3 - the courses sailed and whether contact occurred. I think it suffice to say, however, that if rule 18.3 was found not to apply, rule 13 & 18.2(a) would initially apply between the boats from the time Yellow passed head to wind and the boats were overlapped.
While tacking, Yellow would be entitled to Mark-Room as inside overlapped, but would be subject to rule 13 while tacking and during that time would not have the protection of exoneration under rule 21 because she would not be sailing in the room to which she was entitled.
Finally, [At that point, blue is no longer fetching the mark, and I'm not sure what happens next. Maybe the other boats can't get to the mark on this tack either with blue and yellow in the way, so they tack to port.]
It’s easy to misunderstood the meaning of Fetching. Indeed, Blue is fetching the mark at position 3 and the further she sails to Windward only makes it more certain that she is in a position to pass the mark on the required side without tacking.
Created: 20-Feb-25 16:33
Ron Kallen
Nationality: United States
0
Blue is fetching the mark on a close-hauled heading as she enters the zone. Yellow completed her tack inside the zone but is below the layline and on her current heading is not fetching the mark at 2 and is now overlapped inside blue. 18.3 turned on when yellow completed her tack. As yellow went above close-hauled forcing blue to go above close-hauled, yellow broke 18.3. Since 18.3 applies, 18.2 does not apply and yellow, now inside, does not get mark-room.
Created: 20-Feb-25 16:42
Ron Kallen
Nationality: United States
0
Blue is fetching the mark on a close-hauled heading as she enters the zone. Yellow completed her tack inside the zone but is below the layline and on her current heading is not fetching the mark at 2 and is now overlapped inside blue. 18.3 turned on when yellow completed her tack. As yellow went above close-hauled forcing blue to go above close-hauled, yellow broke 18.3. Since 18.3 applies, 18.2 does not apply and yellow, now inside, does not get mark-room.
Further: A literal reading of 18.3 seems to say (if we agree that blue after completing her tack is not fetching the mark while close-hauled) then not all the conditions of 18.3 are met and yet it would be logical to invoke 18.3 against yellow for forcing blue to go above close-hauled.
Created: 20-Feb-25 17:00
Ron Kallen
Nationality: United States
0
Blue is fetching the mark on a close-hauled heading as she enters the zone. Yellow completed her tack inside the zone but is below the layline and on her current heading is not fetching the mark at 2 and is now overlapped inside blue. 18.3 turned on when yellow completed her tack. As yellow went above close-hauled forcing blue to go above close-hauled, yellow broke 18.3. Since 18.3 applies, 18.2 does not apply and yellow, now inside, does not get mark-room.
Further: A literal reading of 18.3 seems to say (if we agree that blue after completing her tack is not fetching the mark while close-hauled) then not all the conditions of 18.3 are met and yet it would be logical to invoke 18.3 against yellow for forcing blue to go above close-hauled.
Further yet: on 2nd thought the definition of fetching is expansive and one can construe that blue is indeed fetching but in succeeding moments may lose way and hit the mark. She still breaks 18.3.
Created: 20-Feb-25 17:10
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
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Regional Judge
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Phil .. reading your post and your 'what-if this happened further from the mark alternative-scenario', might it be good to break-up the actions a little finer? I do not think I am making any changes in what you posted, just breaking it up into smaller chunks.
Let me know what you think of what I laid-out.
However, had Yellow tacked further to leeward than illustrated, and it turned out she was unable to pass the mark without tacking, the precise rules that applied would depend on what happened after position 3 - ......
While tacking, Yellow would be entitled to Mark-Room as inside overlapped, but would be subject to rule 13 while tacking and during that time would not have the protection of exoneration under rule 21 because she would not be sailing in the room to which she was entitled.
Let's assume at position #2, they are on a close-hauled course 2-BLs below the STB layline. Let's make it far enough away that 18.3 will not apply
At position #2, 18.2(a), 11, 16.1 apply between Yellow and Blue
Yellow is ROW (RRS 11) inside overlapped inside the zone, thus is owed mark-room from Blue (RRS 18.2(a))
This mark-room does not include room-to-tack as Yellow is not overlapped to windward
Yellow being ROW is limited in her changes of course by RRS 16.1, but can luff-up to HTW within that limitation
At position #3, Yellow went from close-hauled to HTW.
Blue must keep clear of yellow (RRS 11)
Yellow must give Blue room to keep-clear as she luffs to HTW (RRS 16.1)
based upon the drawing (if we just slide the boats down as drawn), there is no contact between Yellow and Blue
it appears that Blue does not break 11 and
Yellow does not break 16.1
Now comes the stand-off .. which boat passes HTW first onto the new tack.
if Yellow passes HTW first and Blue holds her HTW position and there is contact
18.2(a) turns off as they are on opposite tacks via 18.1(a)
Yellow breaks both RRS 13 and 14.
if Blue passes HTW first and Yellow follows
Yellow as the boat to port while 13 applies to both and the windward-overlapped boat, must keep clear of Blue
first under 13 until she reached close-hauled on port.
then under 11 after she reaches close-hauled on port
18.2(a) turns off momentarily as they are on opposite tacks via 18.1(a), but then turns back on
Yellow is entitled to mark-room as soon as she passes HTW as inside overlapped boat via 18.2(a)
Yellow's mark-room doesn't yet include room to tack until she makes headway toward the layline.
If they both end-up overlapped on port tack at a new position #4 and sail a BL or 2
Yellow has mark-room via 18.2(a)
Yellow's mark-room now includes room-to-tack back to starboard as she is windward, overlapped and would be fetching the mark afterwards
However, if Yellow tacks back to startboard and contact is made between the boats, 18.2(f) can come into play
If Yellow's tack onto port was so close to Blue that Blue did not have opportunity to give Yellow room to tack back to starboard, Blue would not be obligated to give Yellow that mark-room which would include room to tack (room for her stern to swing).
In that case, Yellow's contact with Blue, Yellow would break rule 11.
Did I get anything wrong there?
Created: 20-Feb-25 17:25
David Chudzicki
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Judge
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I meant to draw it so that yellow was definitely in a position to pass the mark without tacking. Sorry if that was unclear.
In this picture I intend that yellow is too far below the lay line to pass the mark without tacking, and everyone else would be able to (aside from yellow's luff) round the mark.
Created: 20-Feb-25 18:26
David Chudzicki
Nationality: United States
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Angelo's analysis looks right to me. Thanks Angelo!
Created: 20-Feb-25 18:29
Simon Winn
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
I prepared the following after hearing 4 protests at the Sonata Nationals all to do with port tack boats tacking on to starboard near the windward mark.
BOAT TACTICS AT A WINDWARD MARK
Situation near a windward mark to be left to port
1. Boat S STBD Close Hauled Right of Way boat - ROW RRS 10
“ P PORT “ Give way boat - GWB
Outside the 3 boat length circle
2. P Tacks Must keep clear while tacking GWB RRS13
S STBD Close Hauled ROW
3. P When tack complete
(a) Is P’s course clear ahead and to windward of S? If S gains overlap, P is GWB RRS 11
· *P is liable for a Two-Turn penalty or DSQ.
or (b) Is P’s course clear ahead or to leeward of S? P becomes ROW if S gains overlap RRS 15
· *S is liable for a Two-Turn penalty or DSQ. & RRS 11
4 When overlapped on the same tack as the first boat enters the 3-boat length circle, the ROW boat must be given mark room. RRS 18.2
Both boats must avoid contact at all times. RRS 14
Inside the 3 boat length circle
5.. P Tacks Must keep clear while tacking GWB RRS13
S STBD Close Hauled ROW
6. P When tack complete:
(a) Is her new starboard tack course clear ahead to windward of S? RRS13
If S gains overlap, P remains GWB. RRS 11
AND as well as being given mark room S must not need to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact with P or the mark. RRS 14 & RRS 18.3.
AND if S makes unavoidable contact with the mark, S would be exonerated from the provisions of RRS 18.3 and RRS 31.
· *P is liable for a Two-Turn penalty or DSQ.
or (b) Is her new starboard tack course clear directly ahead of or to RRS13 leeward of S?
Although P would be ROW boat RSS 15 & RSS 11 she would be in the wrong if S had to sail above close-hauled to keep clear of P to windward, or to avoid contact with P or the mark . RRS 14 & RRS 18.3
· *P is liable for a Two-Turn penalty or DSQ.
CONCLUSION
The odds are stacked against any port tack boat tacking on to starboard in close proximity to starboard tack boats near a windward mark. A lot hangs on the location viz-a-viz the 3 boat-length circle.
SW/26.05.19
Created: 20-Feb-25 18:51
John Standley
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
International Judge
National Umpire
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This issue would be clarified if we went back to the 2013-16 version where it is the starboard boat that needed to be fetching the mark not the boat that tacks. The 2013-16 version stated 'If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them. The boat that changed tack (a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close hauled to avoid contact etc. I cannot recall the reasoning but vaguely recall that there was a complication for port rounding marks which has been clarified by making 18.3 apply only at port rounding marks.
Created: 20-Feb-26 01:57
David Chudzicki
Nationality: United States
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Club Judge
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John: There's a lot of detail on the history from Rob Overton in the thread Angelo linked near the top.
Created: 20-Feb-26 10:41
Phil Mostyn
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
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Hi Ang,
I'm going to set out to embed comments within your analysis:
Let's assume at position #2, they are on a close-hauled course 2-BLs below the STB layline. Let's make it far enough away that 18.3 will not apply
At position #2, 18.2(a), 11, 16.1 apply between Yellow and Blue
Yellow is ROW (RRS 11) inside overlapped inside the zone, thus is owed mark-room from Blue (RRS 18.2(a)) Agreed
This mark-room does not include room-to-tack (to port tack) as Yellow is not overlapped to windward .................. and would not be fetching the mark
Yellow being ROW is limited in her changes of course by RRS 16.1, but can luff-up to HTW within that limitation Agreed. while luffing she is protected against 16.1 by rule 21
At position #3, Yellow went from close-hauled to HTW.
Blue must keep clear of Yellow (RRS 11) Agreed - and give room
Yellow must give Blue room to keep-clear as she luffs to HTW (RRS 16.1) NO, 18.2(a) protects her against breaking 16.1 by exoneration under rule 21(a).
based upon the drawing (if we just slide the boats down as drawn), there is no contact between Yellow and Blue
it appears that Blue does not break 11 and Agreed
Yellow does not break 16.1 Agreed
Now comes the stand-off .. which boat passes HTW first onto the new tack.
if Yellow passes HTW first and Blue holds her HTW position and there is contact
18.2(a) turns off as they are on opposite tacks via 18.1(a) Agreed
Yellow breaks both RRS 13 and 14. Agreed
if Blue passes HTW first and Yellow follows
Yellow as the boat to port while 13 applies to both and the windward-overlapped boat, must keep clear of Blue Agreed
first under 13 until she reached close-hauled on port. Agreed, but note that Yellow would have momentarily been ROW (rule 10) before she passed HTW.
then under 11 after she reaches close-hauled on port NO - Blue would be ROW (rule11) but 18.2(a) applied after the tacks were complete and Blue would have to give Yellow M/R.
18.2(a) turns off momentarily as they are on opposite tacks via 18.1(a), but then turns back on Agreed
Yellow is entitled to mark-room as soon as she passes HTW as inside overlapped boat via 18.2(a) Agreed [see 3 (b)(a)(b) above]
Yellow's mark-room doesn't yet include room to tack until she makes headway toward the layline. Agreed - and she would fetch the mark after tacking
If they both end-up overlapped on port tack at a new position #4 and sail a BL or 2
Yellow has mark-room via 18.2(a) Agreed
Yellow's mark-room now includes room-to-tack back to starboard as she is windward, overlapped and would be fetching the mark afterwards -Agreed
However, if Yellow tacks back to startboard and contact is made between the boats, 18.2(f) can come into play Agreed
If Yellow's tack onto port was so close to Blue that Blue did not have opportunity to give Yellow room to tack back to starboard, Blue would not be obligated to give Yellow that mark-room which would include room to tack (room for her stern to swing) .- Agreed - but I think Blue would have to have started trying to give room from the moment the overlap began, not just when Yellow's tack was completed for 18.2(f) to apply.
In that case, Yellow's contact with Blue, Yellow would break rule 11. NO - If 18.2(f) applies, Blue would not be required to give Yellow Mark-Room, so Yellow would be be subject to rule 13 while tacking and 10, 11 & 12 would not apply. Yellow breaks 13
Did I get anything wrong there?
Ang, Have a look at 2(b); 3(b)(b) & 4(a)(b)(b) - I've copied them hereunder. What do you think, would you agree?;
Yellow must give Blue room to keep-clear as she luffs to HTW (RRS 16.1) NO, 18.2(a) protects her against breaking 16.1 by exoneration under rule 21(a).
then under 11 after she reaches close-hauled on port NO - Blue would be ROW (rule11) but 18.2(a) also applied and Blue would have to give Yellow M/R.
In that case, Yellow's contact with Blue, Yellow would break rule 11. NO - If 18.2(f) applies, Blue would not be required to give Yellow Mark-Room, so Yellow would be be subject to rule 13 while tacking and 10, 11 & 12 would not apply. Yellow breaks 13
Certainly it's easierl to understand the workings of the rules by examining a single hupothetical scenarios with diagrams - one by one - rather than setting out a fluid scenario without multiple diagrams, which can become very complicated and confusing. Anyway let me know what you think.
Created: 20-Feb-26 15:34
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
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Phil .. thanks for taking the time to do that. I think each of your "catches" are good and worth talking about. I'll number them as I originally did so it's easy for us (and others) to follow.
2.2 Yellow must give Blue room to keep-clear as she luffs to HTW (RRS 16.1) -> NO, 18.2(a) protects her against breaking 16.1 by exoneration under rule 21(a).
Yea, I thought about that one.
Is it possible that this question could go both ways?
Do you think this could go either way based upon where the boats were [Yellow was] when they [she] started their tack [her luff]?
What I mean to say is that yes, 18.2(a) allows 21(a) to come into play, but only if Yellow was sailing within mark-room she was entitled to, right? That mark-room is to sail to the mark on its proper-side and does not include "room to tack" (a debatable term/meaning). If the boats have passed the mark to leeward and are approaching the port layline, is Yellow going HTW sailing within mark-room she is entitled if her HTW course takes her to the wrong-side of the mark? See below. I thought not .. that for Yellow to be sailing within her mark-room, that she would need to luff before she passed to leeward of the mark.
3.2.2 then under 11 after she reaches close-hauled on port -> NO - Blue would be ROW (rule11) but 18.2(a) also applied and Blue would have to give Yellow M/R.
I think what I said is correct, but also what you say is correct. What I said is that Yellow must keep clear under rule 11. I think that is a true statement, but also she is entitled to mark-room as you say .. so she's a keep-clear boat (11) entitled to mark-room (18.2.a)
4.1.2.2 In that case, Yellow's contact with Blue, Yellow would break rule 11. -> NO - If 18.2(f) applies, Blue would not be required to give Yellow Mark-Room, so Yellow would be be subject to rule 13 while tacking and 10, 11 & 12 would not apply. Yellow breaks 13
In 4.1.2.2 above, Yellow and Blue have completed their tacks onto port and Yellow is tacking back to starboard for the mark. In my mind, the contact was happening before Yellow passed HTW, so she was just luffing from a position to windward of Blue, thus breaking 11. I would agree with you if the contact occurs after she passes HTW.
So, maybe both correct again "depending" on some incident details? If contact before Yellow reaches HTW, 13 does not apply, 11 still does. If after Yellow passes HTW, then 13 applies and 11 does not?
Phil .. thanks for taking the time to do that. I think each of your "catches" are good and worth talking about. I'll number them as I originally did so it's easy for us (and others) to follow.
2.2 Yellow must give Blue room to keep-clear as she luffs to HTW (RRS 16.1) -> NO, 18.2(a) protects her against breaking 16.1 by exoneration under rule 21(a).
Yea, I thought about that one.
Is it possible that this question could go both ways?
Yes, I agree entirely. Spot on! Exoneration under rule 21 depends on the boat with M/R to be sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled. In my last submission I attempted to illustrate and depict some of the rules and tactics involved in the scenario.
Do you think this could go either way based upon where the boats were [Yellow was] when they [she] started their tack [her luff]?
What I mean to say is that yes, 18.2(a) allows 21(a) to come into play, but only if Yellow was sailing within mark-room she was entitled to, right? That mark-room is to sail to the mark on its proper-side and does not include "room to tack" (a debatable term/meaning). If the boats have passed the mark to leeward and are approaching the port layline, is Yellow going HTW sailing within mark-room she is entitled if her HTW course takes her to the wrong-side of the mark? See below. I thought not .. that for Yellow to be sailing within her mark-room, that she would need to luff before she passed to leeward of the mark.
What'cha think? What do I think? Well In the case of the diagram I submitted, Yellow has M/R as soon as she passes HTW between 1 & 2 and it continues to exist even after it becomes impossible for her to reach the mark without tacking. The case is simply that she is trapped to leeward of Blue because the M/R she enjoys doesn't give her room to tack. As soon as she passes HTW her M/R is extinguished. To me, talk of "proper course" within the context of our topic can be misleading as Yellow does not have such a right. - she just has M/R.
3.2.2 then under 11 after she reaches close-hauled on port -> NO - Blue would be ROW (rule11) but 18.2(a) also applied and Blue would have to give Yellow M/R.
I think what I said is correct, but also what you say is correct. What I said is that Yellow must keep clear under rule 11. I think that is a true statement, but also she is entitled to mark-room as you say .. so she's a keep-clear boat (11) entitled to mark-room (18.2.a) Yes, rule 11 certainly applies, but Yellow would be exonerated for breaking 11 under rule 21.1(a) because she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled. I think 18.2(a) would be Blue's downfall.
4.1.2.2 In that case, Yellow's contact with Blue, Yellow would break rule 11. -> NO - If 18.2(f) applies, Blue would not be required to give Yellow Mark-Room, so Yellow would be be subject to rule 13 while tacking and 10, 11 & 12 would not apply. Yellow breaks 13
In 4.1.2.2 above, Yellow and Blue have completed their tacks onto port and Yellow is tacking back to starboard for the mark. In my mind, the contact was happening before Yellow passed HTW, so she was just luffing from a position to windward of Blue, thus breaking 11. I would agree with you if the contact occurs after she passes HTW.
Ang, my original answer assummed contact after HTW. However, the fact that Yellow couldnt luff prior to passing HTW, without making contact ( to luff is part of a windward changing-tack manoeuvre ) is evidence enough that Blue was not giving room to tack as required by rule 18 (a) or 18.2(b). Team racing Call E14 deals with a scenario where Yellow is able to pass HTW without contact, but contact accured after she passed HTW and 18 has been turned off by Yellow passing HTW. Decision? Blue did not give room to tack.
So, maybe both correct again "depending" on some incident details? If contact before Yellow reaches HTW, 13 does not apply, 11 still does. If after Yellow passes HTW, then 13 applies and 11 does not?
Cheers, Phil.
Created: 20-Feb-27 07:39
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Phil, honing this last point ..
Do you think this could go either way based upon where Yellow was when she started her luff?
What I mean to say is that yes, 18.2(a) allows 21(a) to come into play, but only if Yellow was sailing within mark-room she was entitled to, right? That mark-room is to sail to the mark on its proper-side and does not include "room to tack" (a debatable term/meaning). If the boats have passed the mark to leeward and are approaching the port layline, is Yellow going HTW sailing within mark-room she is entitled if her HTW course takes her to the wrong-side of the mark? See below. I thought not .. that for Yellow to be sailing within her mark-room, that she would need to luff before she passed to leeward of the mark.
What'cha think? What do I think? Well In the case of the diagram I submitted, Yellow has M/R as soon as she passes HTW between 1 & 2 and it continues to exist even after it becomes impossible for her to reach the mark without tacking. The case is simply that she is trapped to leeward of Blue because the M/R she enjoys doesn't give her room to tack. As soon as she passes HTW her M/R is extinguished. To me, talk of "proper course" within the context of our topic can be misleading as Yellow does not have such a right. - she just has M/R
I understand your drawings in the stand alone comment about the tactics. That was very clear and illustrative.
You mention "proper course" in your reply above. I never used that term, but I guess one could make the case I did in a way without saying it .. "A rose by any other name ..." and all that :-)
Focusing for a moment on my drawing below, which illustrated how I thought of it prior to this discussion, and your drawing between #2-#3, which shows Yellow arguably maneuvering on a course "to the mark" and arguably within the mark-room boundary that I drew. I am unclear if you are agreeing with my representation of the left-side bounds of Yellow's mark-room in this situation. In my drawing, if Yellow had delayed her luff until just before 4 and luffed-up quickly such that she makes contact with Blue and breaks 16.1 at my #4, would she be exonerated by 21 in your opinion?
If so, what if Yellow did the same maneuver at the dotted-line representing the port layline?
Certainly in both cases Yellow is entitled to MR as 18.2(a) applies, but in my drawing and in the 'at the layline version', is the mark-room Yellow is entitled to a more expansive mark-room than I've represented [in the green area], in your opinion?
My initial reaction was; yes, why not? Consider the case of port tack boats overlapped at the zone & rounding to port. The inside boat has mark room that includes room to tack. Her "rule 21 course" ( for want of a better expression) is to tack when she reaches the starboard layline. Similarly, in our case, involving starboard tack boats, Yellow's "rule 21 course" might be - remembering there can be more than 1 such course - to luff to the mark or to to tack when she reaches the port layline. Unfortunately for Yellow, she has no room to tack, but to my mind that does not remove her M/R rights.
So yes, I believe Yellow's rule 21 "within the room to which she's entitled" area continues past the luffing course at least the port layline - at which point she can luff but not tack.
Created: 20-Feb-28 08:51
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Thanks Phil. I've been examining why I have such an affinity to my more restrictive area and I came to realized that I've been hanging my hat on Cases 118 and 75 when it comes to developing an understanding of the bounds of mark-room.
Case 118 comes out in its summary statement and says,
"In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase “room to sail to the mark” means space to sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark."
Reading 118 plainly (reinforced by 75's "corridor") is what has led me to my green-zone. That said, both 118 and 75 are downwind scenarios where a boat is much more ably to take a course directly to the mark on the required side.
If I may channel your point as I understand it, is that even though Yellow's room does not include room to pass HTW (and thus "on the required side of the mark"), as long as she is below the port-layline, heading up to HTW will bring her to "a position close to .. the mark". I'm struggling to read Case 118 in a way that "... a position close to, and on the required side" are not combined conditions which must both be satisfied.
In the end, it simply might not be correct to apply Case 118 when the boats are overlapped on a beat to windward.
Do we have a Case or Call which exonerates (or does not exonerate) our Yellow via rule 21 when the boats are on a beat to windward and overlapped inside the zone ... and Yellow is sailing outside of my green zone? If so, it would be helpful to hold that one in mind along with 118.
Created: 20-Feb-29 13:24
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If you scroll through the thread near the end, you will find a Rule 18.3 history from Rob Overton, as well as a discussion of "fetching". - Ang
It doesn't really sound like there's any disagreement about the rules -- maybe just some disagreement about how common this situation is, whether it's a problem, and how cautious the tacker should be about a possible ruling that they really were fetching the mark.
The diagram depicts Yellow in a common scenario - able to fetch the mark at position 2 by continuing to shoot the mark and bear away to pass the mark on the required side without tacking. I’m confident that confronted with facts found that reflect the positions in the diagram, a jury would promptly conclude that rule 18.3 does apply.
However, had Yellow tacked further to leeward than illustrated, and it turned out she was unable to pass the mark without tacking, the precise rules that applied would depend on what happened after position 3 - the courses sailed and whether contact occurred. I think it suffice to say, however, that if rule 18.3 was found not to apply, rule 13 & 18.2(a) would initially apply between the boats from the time Yellow passed head to wind and the boats were overlapped.
While tacking, Yellow would be entitled to Mark-Room as inside overlapped, but would be subject to rule 13 while tacking and during that time would not have the protection of exoneration under rule 21 because she would not be sailing in the room to which she was entitled.
Finally,
[At that point, blue is no longer fetching the mark, and I'm not sure what happens next. Maybe the other boats can't get to the mark on this tack either with blue and yellow in the way, so they tack to port.]
It’s easy to misunderstood the meaning of Fetching. Indeed, Blue is fetching the mark at position 3 and the further she sails to Windward only makes it more certain that she is in a position to pass the mark on the required side without tacking.
Further: A literal reading of 18.3 seems to say (if we agree that blue after completing her tack is not fetching the mark while close-hauled) then not all the conditions of 18.3 are met and yet it would be logical to invoke 18.3 against yellow for forcing blue to go above close-hauled.
Further: A literal reading of 18.3 seems to say (if we agree that blue after completing her tack is not fetching the mark while close-hauled) then not all the conditions of 18.3 are met and yet it would be logical to invoke 18.3 against yellow for forcing blue to go above close-hauled.
Further yet: on 2nd thought the definition of fetching is expansive and one can construe that blue is indeed fetching but in succeeding moments may lose way and hit the mark. She still breaks 18.3.
Let me know what you think of what I laid-out.
Let's assume at position #2, they are on a close-hauled course 2-BLs below the STB layline. Let's make it far enough away that 18.3 will not apply
Did I get anything wrong there?
Here's an improved drawing:
In this picture I intend that yellow is too far below the lay line to pass the mark without tacking, and everyone else would be able to (aside from yellow's luff) round the mark.
BOAT TACTICS AT A WINDWARD MARK
If S gains overlap, P is GWB RRS 11
P becomes ROW if S gains overlap RRS 15
the ROW boat must be given mark room. RRS 18.2
avoid contact with P or the mark. RRS 14 & RRS 18.3.
provisions of RRS 18.3 and RRS 31.
leeward of S?
she would be in the wrong if S had to sail above close-hauled
to keep clear of P to windward, or to avoid contact with P or the mark
. RRS 14 & RRS 18.3
The 2013-16 version stated
'If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close hauled to avoid contact etc.
I cannot recall the reasoning but vaguely recall that there was a complication for port rounding marks which has been clarified by making 18.3 apply only at port rounding marks.
I'm going to set out to embed comments within your analysis:
Let's assume at position #2, they are on a close-hauled course 2-BLs below the STB layline. Let's make it far enough away that 18.3 will not apply
Did I get anything wrong there?
Ang, Have a look at 2(b); 3(b)(b) & 4(a)(b)(b) - I've copied them hereunder. What do you think, would you agree?;
Certainly it's easierl to understand the workings of the rules by examining a single hupothetical scenarios with diagrams - one by one - rather than setting out a fluid scenario without multiple diagrams, which can become very complicated and confusing. Anyway let me know what you think.
Yea, I thought about that one.
the boats were[Yellow was] whenthey[she] startedtheir tack[her luff]?What I mean to say is that yes, 18.2(a) allows 21(a) to come into play, but only if Yellow was sailing within mark-room she was entitled to, right? That mark-room is to sail to the mark on its proper-side and does not include "room to tack" (a debatable term/meaning). If the boats have passed the mark to leeward and are approaching the port layline, is Yellow going HTW sailing within mark-room she is entitled if her HTW course takes her to the wrong-side of the mark? See below. I thought not .. that for Yellow to be sailing within her mark-room, that she would need to luff before she passed to leeward of the mark.
What'cha think?
I think what I said is correct, but also what you say is correct. What I said is that Yellow must keep clear under rule 11. I think that is a true statement, but also she is entitled to mark-room as you say .. so she's a keep-clear boat (11) entitled to mark-room (18.2.a)
In 4.1.2.2 above, Yellow and Blue have completed their tacks onto port and Yellow is tacking back to starboard for the mark. In my mind, the contact was happening before Yellow passed HTW, so she was just luffing from a position to windward of Blue, thus breaking 11. I would agree with you if the contact occurs after she passes HTW.
So, maybe both correct again "depending" on some incident details? If contact before Yellow reaches HTW, 13 does not apply, 11 still does. If after Yellow passes HTW, then 13 applies and 11 does not?
Ang
Phil .. thanks for taking the time to do that. I think each of your "catches" are good and worth talking about. I'll number them as I originally did so it's easy for us (and others) to follow.
Yea, I thought about that one.
Yes, I agree entirely. Spot on! Exoneration under rule 21 depends on the boat with M/R to be sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled. In my last submission I attempted to illustrate and depict some of the rules and tactics involved in the scenario.
the boats were[Yellow was] whenthey[she] startedtheir tack[her luff]?What I mean to say is that yes, 18.2(a) allows 21(a) to come into play, but only if Yellow was sailing within mark-room she was entitled to, right? That mark-room is to sail to the mark on its proper-side and does not include "room to tack" (a debatable term/meaning). If the boats have passed the mark to leeward and are approaching the port layline, is Yellow going HTW sailing within mark-room she is entitled if her HTW course takes her to the wrong-side of the mark? See below. I thought not .. that for Yellow to be sailing within her mark-room, that she would need to luff before she passed to leeward of the mark.
What'cha think? What do I think? Well In the case of the diagram I submitted, Yellow has M/R as soon as she passes HTW between 1 & 2 and it continues to exist even after it becomes impossible for her to reach the mark without tacking. The case is simply that she is trapped to leeward of Blue because the M/R she enjoys doesn't give her room to tack. As soon as she passes HTW her M/R is extinguished. To me, talk of "proper course" within the context of our topic can be misleading as Yellow does not have such a right. - she just has M/R.
I think what I said is correct, but also what you say is correct. What I said is that Yellow must keep clear under rule 11. I think that is a true statement, but also she is entitled to mark-room as you say .. so she's a keep-clear boat (11) entitled to mark-room (18.2.a) Yes, rule 11 certainly applies, but Yellow would be exonerated for breaking 11 under rule 21.1(a) because she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled. I think 18.2(a) would be Blue's downfall.
In 4.1.2.2 above, Yellow and Blue have completed their tacks onto port and Yellow is tacking back to starboard for the mark. In my mind, the contact was happening before Yellow passed HTW, so she was just luffing from a position to windward of Blue, thus breaking 11. I would agree with you if the contact occurs after she passes HTW.
Ang, my original answer assummed contact after HTW. However, the fact that Yellow couldnt luff prior to passing HTW, without making contact ( to luff is part of a windward changing-tack manoeuvre ) is evidence enough that Blue was not giving room to tack as required by rule 18 (a) or 18.2(b). Team racing Call E14 deals with a scenario where Yellow is able to pass HTW without contact, but contact accured after she passed HTW and 18 has been turned off by Yellow passing HTW. Decision? Blue did not give room to tack.
So, maybe both correct again "depending" on some incident details? If contact before Yellow reaches HTW, 13 does not apply, 11 still does. If after Yellow passes HTW, then 13 applies and 11 does not?
Cheers, Phil.
I understand your drawings in the stand alone comment about the tactics. That was very clear and illustrative.
You mention "proper course" in your reply above. I never used that term, but I guess one could make the case I did in a way without saying it .. "A rose by any other name ..." and all that :-)
Focusing for a moment on my drawing below, which illustrated how I thought of it prior to this discussion, and your drawing between #2-#3, which shows Yellow arguably maneuvering on a course "to the mark" and arguably within the mark-room boundary that I drew. I am unclear if you are agreeing with my representation of the left-side bounds of Yellow's mark-room in this situation. In my drawing, if Yellow had delayed her luff until just before 4 and luffed-up quickly such that she makes contact with Blue and breaks 16.1 at my #4, would she be exonerated by 21 in your opinion?
If so, what if Yellow did the same maneuver at the dotted-line representing the port layline?
Certainly in both cases Yellow is entitled to MR as 18.2(a) applies, but in my drawing and in the 'at the layline version', is the mark-room Yellow is entitled to a more expansive mark-room than I've represented [in the green area], in your opinion?
My initial reaction was; yes, why not? Consider the case of port tack boats overlapped at the zone & rounding to port. The inside boat has mark room that includes room to tack. Her "rule 21 course" ( for want of a better expression) is to tack when she reaches the starboard layline. Similarly, in our case, involving starboard tack boats, Yellow's "rule 21 course" might be - remembering there can be more than 1 such course - to luff to the mark or to to tack when she reaches the port layline. Unfortunately for Yellow, she has no room to tack, but to my mind that does not remove her M/R rights.
So yes, I believe Yellow's rule 21 "within the room to which she's entitled" area continues past the luffing course at least the port layline - at which point she can luff but not tack.
Case 118 comes out in its summary statement and says,
Reading 118 plainly (reinforced by 75's "corridor") is what has led me to my green-zone. That said, both 118 and 75 are downwind scenarios where a boat is much more ably to take a course directly to the mark on the required side.
If I may channel your point as I understand it, is that even though Yellow's room does not include room to pass HTW (and thus "on the required side of the mark"), as long as she is below the port-layline, heading up to HTW will bring her to "a position close to .. the mark". I'm struggling to read Case 118 in a way that "... a position close to, and on the required side" are not combined conditions which must both be satisfied.
In the end, it simply might not be correct to apply Case 118 when the boats are overlapped on a beat to windward.
Do we have a Case or Call which exonerates (or does not exonerate) our Yellow via rule 21 when the boats are on a beat to windward and overlapped inside the zone ... and Yellow is sailing outside of my green zone? If so, it would be helpful to hold that one in mind along with 118.