Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Who has finished - Episode 2

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Benjamin Harding
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Who has finished? - 2



In a recent thread , it was overwhelmingly agreed that in Shortened Course Scenario #1, the correct finish is as per the Green Line.

All well and good.  That works well for a small inflatable mark.

----------------------------------------------

In Scenario 2 however, consider the 'mark of the course' is a large island.  Another common one.

The course is shortened at an island, and due to poor holding, the line is set in the position shown in Scenario #2.

The shortened course is set well early, before the lead boats had committed to rounding Big Island.  The lead boats sailed a course to leave Big Island to starboard.

Gold, the last boat, sails a course to finish directly!  She finishes about the same time as the leading boats!

The Race Committee scores Gold as DNF, citing that the intention was that the boats should round the island to starboard.

Gold sought redress, and protests the other boats for a breach of RRS 28.1.

Question 1 - What would the result of the redress/protest hearing be?

Question 2 - Do the rules adequately cater for Scenario 2?

Question 3 - If yes in Q2, what Sailing Instructions could be included to achieve the Race Committee's intentions?


Created: 20-Feb-19 19:54

Comments

Tj Shea
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In both cases the mark boat displaying the S signal is positioned incorrectly.  It should be placed at the opposite side as shown.  that way, as boats are approaching the mark, most likely not aware that there is a shorten course signal, they can begin to round the mark and finish.  RRS 32.2b states "the finishing line shall be a line the course requires boats to cross".  Thus, the only way to finish is to round the mark
Q1.  I would give redress for an improperly placed finish line
Q2.  no, it would have to be detailed in the SIs
Q3.   I don't know how to adequately write this one.  It would appear that to properly notice the fleet that the course is shorten and the island is large enough, some signal would have to be made before boats begin to approach to island to round it, hence, the mark boat needs to be at the opposite side of where it's shown
Created: 20-Feb-19 21:02
Sam Wheeler
Nationality: United States
0
TJ: In Rule 32.2, part b. is an alternative to parts a. or c.  Since in both scenarios the line is between a rounding mark and a staff displaying S, both scenarios satisfy part a. and do not need to satisfy part b. - right?
Created: 20-Feb-19 21:39
Tj Shea
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I believe a and b go together, which still leads me to believe that inthe scenarios, the mark boat is in the wrong location.  I guess its me, the racers I know don't know what the S flag means, so if you position yourself where they are about to round the mark, you got them
Created: 20-Feb-20 00:46
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
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Hard to make conclusive opinion without reference to SIs. 
In scenario 2 it states that the committee expected the boats to round the island. Was this made clear in the SIs?
Created: 20-Feb-20 05:07
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Benjamin Harding
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Interesting twist in the discussion.  Thank you Paddy, Sam and TJ.

(Paddy.  No further information in the SIs, I'm afraid!  Feel free to ask, but I think we have the all the facts for the discussion!)

Question 1.1 - Does RRS 32.2 mean "a AND c, OR c"?  Or does it mean "a OR b OR c?"

Question 1.2 - Does the angle of the shortened course line ( in the diagram) make it ambiguous as to which is the 'course side'?  Can a boat apply Case 82?

-----------------------
Question 1.1

I agree with Sam here.  The construction of the Rule appears that each of the points are separated by OR. e.g. "a OR b OR c".  That is, a shortened course line must comply with at least 1 of the points.

Since Scenario 2 is shortened 'at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S', I think it complies with the rule.  No improper action.

Question 1.2

In Case 82, the finish mark was swinging from either side of the line parallel to the last leg.  In that case, it was very ambiguous.

In this Shortened Course Scenario 2, the finish line is meant to be clearly angled in favour of a West to East finish.  I'm not sure the ambiguity of Case 82 applies.

(At least for the purpose of this discussion, let's say there is no ambiguity.)
Created: 20-Feb-20 06:38
Malcolm McKeag
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The assertion that the mark boat in situation 1 is placed 'incorrectly' and/or 'improperly' is, with respect, too simplistic since it assumes that the mark boat can be placed (i.e. anchored) on any side of mark B. There are times when this might not be possible - for example if mark B is a buoy in a shipping channel and it is either illegal or simply downright dangerous to anchor to the 'north' of mark B (it has happened - trust me!) or there is simply too much water to the 'north' of mark B for the boat to anchor (it has happened - trust me!) or if there is no mark boat and flag S is being displayed from a fixed structure to the 'south' of mark B (it has happened, trust me!).  When the defintion of finishing was simply 'from the direction of the last mark' there was no, or at least less, ambiguity, and the green line would have been the only proper finish. But now that the definition is 'from the course side' the situation really is ambiguous. The course requires mark B to be left to starboard - so it can (and has, trust me!) be argued that 'the course side' of the finish line is that shown in red in the upper figure.
In such a situation the protest committee could decide that boats had a choice as to which side they left mark B (it has etc etc!)  The situation is further confounded if the turn round mark B is not so acute as shown in the upper diagram.  As regards situation 2 I would suggest that the purple line is the only correct course, since the gold boat has not approached the finish line 'from the course side'. In an ideal world and to eliminate any and all ambiguity 32.2(a) would read "at a rounding mark... flag S; this may change the required side of the mark". I am indebted to John Doer for this inspirational thought, he having introduced those words to our own club (RLymingtonYC, England)'s SIs and thus bringing clarity to this popular and vexed question.
Created: 20-Feb-20 07:31
Juuso Leivonen
Nationality: Finland
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1
Check out case 129: "After the race committee shortens the course, the windward mark is no longer a rounding mark. It becomes a finishing mark (see rule 32.2). To comply with rule 28, boats must finish in accordance with the definition Finish. Therefore, they must cross the finishing line from its course side."

So I guess that unless the SI state something additional of the island (e.g. like in case 145), the green line in pic 1 and yellow line in pic 2 would be correct.

You can also check RYA case 1980/2 that states that "A hook-round finish is contrary to the definition Finish, and sailing instructions are not permitted to alter a definition. When the course is shortened and a course mark becomes a finishing line mark, its required side may change." Also RYA Case 2001/6 is good for inspiration :) (RYA Case book)
Created: 20-Feb-20 09:42
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
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Question 2 of Case 129 also specifically states that (although it is not good race management practice) it is not an improper action of the RC to place the boat displaying the S flag at either end of the new finishing line. The boat and the mark now form the finish line, and boats are required to finish from the course side. In this instance it's pretty clear what the direction from the previous mark is so the course side doesn't appear to be ambiguous.

I agree that the gold line in picture #2 is the correct course, no matter what the RC "intended." Gold's request for redress should be upheld. If redress is granted and Gold is awarded her finishing place (presumably first), I'd say the Corinthian thing to do would be for Gold to request to withdraw her protest and all boats be awarded finishing places.

You could get to the purple course by changing the next leg of the course (RRS 33, flag C with repetitive sounds) rather than shortening the course (RRS 32, flag S with two sounds). I think you'd need to lay marks for both ends of the new finish line, such that boats would round the island to starboard and then pass between the new finish line marks. I think you could also write an SI that described an alternative finish line and a signal to invoke it.


Created: 20-Feb-20 17:41
Justin Scott
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Imagine, for a moment, that the finish boat anchored half way up the East side of Big Island, and set a shortened course finish line between the island and the boat.

Then contemplate the finish boat being anchored north of the half way point or South of  the half way point.

Would Gold be entitled to finish leaving Big Island to port in all three circumstances ?    

Created: 20-Feb-20 21:02
Justin Scott
Nationality: United States
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My inclination would be to agree with Malcolm as regards scenario 2.    I dont think there is good precedent in any existing case, so I think we would have to set precedent. My version of this would be by concluding the the finish line was not between the boat and any point on big island , but between the boat and a specific point on Big Island (see diagram in scenario 2) . From that specific point on big island which the RC deemed as a finishing mark, the RC had created a line that the course requires boats to cross.   The only way to cross that line was by coming from the North of Big Island .

I would then tell Gold that they should certainly feel free to appeal because it would be a useful case.
Created: 20-Feb-20 21:10
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Benjamin Harding
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Good discussion.

I agree with Malcolm's first half.  Not necessarily with the second half, since I don't think the 'course' remained the same once the 'mark' became a finish mark.

Juuso/Tim/Justin, I think you are all correct in concluding that the 'Gold' boat sailed correctly.

The point is that there is no differentiation between Scenario 1 and Scenario 2 from the RRS point of view.  If you conclude the Green line is correct for #1, then the Gold line is correct for #2.

Answer 1
  • The position of the 'Shortened Course' race committee vessel complied with RRS32.
  • The angle of the line clearly and unambiguously presents the West-to-East direction as the direction which complied with the definition of Finish.
  • Only Gold is found to have finished correctly. 
  • Gold is to be reinstated and scored in the position she crossed the line, 2nd.
  • Gold is then asked if she would do the 'Corinthian' thing and withdraw her protest against the fleet so they can be given finish places. Gold replies with a grin, "Hell no!" 
  • The other boats to be scored DSQ/RRS28.1.
  • Gold wins the race and the regatta! 
Created: 20-Feb-21 02:59
Juuso Leivonen
Nationality: Finland
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Justin, to your question about if the finish boat is on the other side of the island, there is the Case 82, which says that "when a finishing line is laid so nearly in line with the last leg that it cannot be determined which is the correct way to cross it in order to finish according to the definition, a boat may cross the line in either direction and her finish is to be recorded accordingly." 
Created: 20-Feb-21 07:00
Christian Hartmann
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
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scenario 1 is clear to me: G is fine and valid!

at scenario 2 the first question coming to my mind is:   could a big(!) island be an object (as defined in Definitions) a mark? as a non native speaker this is somehow obsure to me. but i don't feel comfortable with that assumption! my personal conclusion:  shortening there is just not valid and i have no clue how to handle this wisely within the rules. :(

RC should have laid a mark (read as: an object) anywhere close to the island and require boats to leave that one on starboard. job done! ;)

Created: 20-Feb-21 14:35
Justin Scott
Nationality: United States
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Hello Ben,

Under scenario 2 I did not conclude that Gold sailed the course correctly. I agreed with Malcolm that it is likely that purple was the correct course to finish. Here is another shot at my explanation: 

First I would question the RC to establish whether they were using (a) A specific point on the island as one end of the finish line or (b) The entire Big Island as a finish mark.

It seems clear from the diagram that the RC are using a specific point on the island as one end of the finish line. If the RC were using the entire island, then a boat would only have to cross any line between any point of the coast and the RC boat, which would allow an absurd multiple of finishing locations.  According to the diagram the purple fleet was only finished when they crossed a line between a specific point on the island and the RC boat, . long after they crossed an imaginary line between the RC boat and the Northern end of Big Island.

I thus concluded that the RC are using a specific point of the island as the finish line. The SIs did not specify a specific point on Big Island as a rounding mark. The entire Big Island was a rounding mark. Thus  32.2 a does not apply but 32.2 b does apply. 

The line between the specific point on Big Island and the RC created a line that the course required the boats to cross .  The Purple boats sailed the course and crossed that line in compliance with 32.2 b and this finished. Gold did not. Gold was scored DNF

Question 1.  Does Gold have redress?  At the redress hearing we would have to consider the SIs and actions of the RC to establish whether the OA  or RC made a significant error that would cause a competitor to misapprehend the location of the finish mark.  If the jury concluded that the location of the finish line was genuinely ambiguous (specific point of island vs entire island) then redress could be granted to Gold and she could be scored last instead of DNF.

Question 2   Do the rules cater for scenario 2 ?:  A published case or a formal request for interpretation would probably help.

Question 3. The SI's could state something like  " If the RC shorten course using Big Island as one end of the finish line, the finish line shall represent a line that the course requires boats to cross  between the orange flag on the RC boat and the nearest point of land on Big Island to the RC boat.  Big Island shall be left to starboard and the RC boat to port. " 


Created: 20-Feb-21 15:07
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Benjamin Harding
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Justin,

Sorry to have misquoted you.

1.  For discussion scenario purpose, there is no clarification in the SI which part of the island was being used.

The rules don't specify any particular point must be used.  In Scenario 2, they were using the closest point to the 'S' flag, but considered the whole island as the 'mark of the course'.

2.  The lack of instruction in RRS and lack of clarification in the SI of which point of the island is used as the other end of the line makes it very difficult for competitors, as you say. If the mark of the course is a small inflatable buoy, there is never any question.  Scale up, and things get confused.  I have a real example where this exact issue was the subject of redress hearing alone!

3.  You said that if the whole island were to be used, then the line should be that imaginary line you mention. e.g. the Tangent of from the 'S' flag and the northern coastline of the island if leaving it to stbd (green sight-line), and the southern coastline if leaving it to port (red sight-line).  That would be a reasonable principal to use for sighting lines at an island.

Is it not also reasonable for an RO to use 'the closest point on the island (orange sight-line)' to the 'S' flag as a sighting point or even a feature (yellow)?  My point is that I don't recall any real guidance for ROs on this this topic.

However, I don't think any of these options create 'a line that boats 'are required' to cross, as referred to in 32.2(b).  (See below.)

4.  RRS32.2(b) - I'm not sure it applies here.  I think 32.2(b) must logically refer to a line defined by SIs in terms of place and dimensions existing in the course PRIOR to any shortening of the course, rather than one which is created as-a-result of the shortening, or a line whose geographical conditions render it unavoidable to cross.

In other words, I think 32.2(b) refers to lines which already exist in the course, and makes them valid places to shorten (since boats will cross them anyway).  Submission 137-14 addressed this (unclearly) in 2013, when the rule wording was changed.

Yet, I don't think that the question of 32.2(b) is material to my fundamental question, which is whether a 'hook' finish as described in Case 129 applies to big islands.  To illustrate, see Diagram 2a.

The question still remains whether Gold's direct line, or Purple's 'hook' is correct, regardless of whether the RO is sighting along the first point, closest point, a feature or last point on the island.

------------------------------------------------------
The whole aim of this discussion is because I'm intrigued to examine whether the current rules are suitable for island marks, and whether there is sufficient guidance available to ROs and OAs on how to shorten courses at islands.  Hopefully this discussion may help an RO avoid a ruined day!

Who has finished - 2a.png 20 KB

Submission 137-14
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/13714RacingRulesofSailingRule32.2b-[17523].pdf
Created: 20-Feb-21 19:14
Justin Scott
Nationality: United States
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Hello Ben,

I think your topic is extremely instructive and worthy of discussion, which is why I participated.

The real moral or lesson that is emerging from your topic, is an that if an OA is using a significant land mass or a sizeable object for a mark of the course, then the SIs should specify how the course shall be shortened in the vicinity of that land mass or object. 

With your refinement of the situation I would still find that Gold was DNF but grant her redress to a last place finish (the position she was in before she left the island on the wrong side ) and I would score purple fleet as finished. I would find the OA made a significant error.   AS you say " The lack of instruction in RRS and lack of clarification in the SI of which point of the island is used as the other end of the line makes it very difficult for competitors "
However I my conclusion on whether Gold or Purple sailed the course correctly would be based on  "In Scenario 2, they were using the closest point to the 'S' flag, but considered the whole island as the 'mark of the course'. I continue to conclude that the RC were not using the entire mark of the course as a finishing mark.  They were using a specific point as the finishing mark.   I admit I am influenced in my approach because it finds the just, fair and common sense result.

I suspect we continue to disagree as to whether 32.2 (a) or 32.2 (b) applies. I would find that purple finished and you would find that purple did not finish. Hopefully we would both get appealed and a case would establish the precedent that we need.

Thank you for raising the topic.  I look forward to a day when RHKYC hosts a Viper 640 world championship. I enjoyed sailing an Etchells event at HK but it was a very long time ago.
Created: 20-Feb-21 19:43
Sam Wheeler
Nationality: United States
0
Based on the language saying it must be a line boats are "required" to cross, the only way I could see 32.2(b) implemented on the Scenario 2 course would be if the shortened finish line was defined as a line extending endlessly (or to some off-screen hard boundary, like a mainland shore) at a particular angle from some point on the island.  Since the course requires boats to round the island, all boats would be required to cross such a line in sailing the original course.  Under those circumstances, if the line were in the position where it appears on the original diagram, presumably the purple course would be correct (although not required to finish between the boat and the island).  

Communicating that shortened course to the competitors would be challenging, though, and even if you could, setting a boat with an S-flag would be a bad idea because it would suggest that Rule 32.2(a) rather than (b) is being used.

EDIT: To clarify and expand on this thought, I believe the finite line as shown between the island and the S-boat is not a line boats are "required" to cross in the original course, because they could finish the original course by taking a wider turn around the island, outside of where the S-boat is anchored.
Created: 20-Feb-21 19:43
Tim Hohmann
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Regarding Scenario 2a diagram and the various possible sight lines - as long as the RC uses the same sight line/point on the island to finish all boats, does it really matter which one they use?

But I do agree that using such a large object as a finishing mark when shortening the course would be bad RC practice. I'd again say that it would be better to lay both ends of a new finish line and change(IAW RRS 33) rather than shorten the course.
Created: 20-Feb-21 20:17
Justin Scott
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Yes Sam and Ben,

I agree that my conclusion has weak foundations and my fellow panel members would probably squash my suggestion.

What should the RC have done in order to achieve the result they desired?    For a distance race, round a large island , how does the RC shorten course without allowing someone to simply cut out the island ?   

Isle of Sheppey Race



Created: 20-Feb-21 20:34
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Angelo Guarino
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Justin re: "how does the RC shorten course without allowing someone to simply cut out the island ? "

How about something like this? :-)

image.png 62.5 KB
Created: 20-Feb-21 22:17
Justin Scott
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Sadly, poor ole RC finds itself without B or C described in the SIs of Ben's Big Island race ......or the real life SIs of the Sheppey Island race......a  fantastic bucket list endurance day of single handed sailing which I sailed many many many years ago. 

I like Tim's idea . The hurdle would be signalling the change of course "shorter" before the leg started.   Arguably the return leg starts at the half way point around the mark??????  OMG....we could develop a whole new thread on when a leg starts if a mark is 18 miles wide and 20 miles long.
Created: 20-Feb-22 00:08
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Angelo Guarino
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The added twist of something like what I drew is that there isn’t a continuous 3BL zone off of the navigable water contour (that nobody can see BTW).  The entire is island reduces to a Rule 19 exercise as the zones of B and C are in unnavigable waters, so nobody ever enters them. 

Interesting. 
Created: 20-Feb-22 03:15
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Benjamin Harding
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Sam,

I agree with you that any finish line may not be 'a line which all boats are required to cross'.  (See diagram 3.)

Tim,

In an ideal world, the RC would have a number of vessels and spare buoys to hand.  In reality, they may just have one more mark-rib, with an S flag on a broomstick, and a saucepan and wooden spoon!

This RRS33 technique is preferred for windsurfing and foiling events over relatively short and compact courses with well resourced race committees. In reality many clubs would struggle to have one vessel changing the course at the previous mark, and another one laying a whole new finish line.

Ang,

Adding B and C into the course description is functional (works), but I don't think that practical.

It means that for every turning point in every course, there must be 2 points named in the course description.  Imagine how complex the course booklet would become.

Should we be looking for a more generic means of guiding competitors and ROs for any island mark?

(I actually think we're on the right track with the rule 19 application.  Standby...)


Who has finished - 3.png 56.2 KB

Diagram 3a shows some possible contenders for Shortened Course Lines.

  • S1 and S2 need no explanation.  They don't really work.  Purple stayed offshore for better winds, and did not see or hear the sounds and flags and missed S1.
  • S3 is not bad since it is at an apex of a turn.  It must be reasonable to expect a good navigator to choose the shortest course.  However, not always.  Better winds offshore, wind shifts, boat-on-boat race tactics all might cause a boat to sail outside the apex.
  • S4 is better since island B creates a constriction in the course, and the line between them becomes a line which is unavoidable to cross (note the different terminology here), albeit 2 km long.  However, S4 is subject to the 'hook finish' debate of Case 129!
  • Apart from being subject to the 'hook finish' debate of Case 129, S5 also shows how much is gained from knowing exactly how the RO sights the line.  Purple, the local boat knows that the RO uses the leading edge of the island (y).  Visiting boat Gold expects that the line would be sighted perpendicular to the shoreline at the closest point to the RC vessel (x), and stays offshore for better winds.  Ouch!

Yet, each shortened course line complies with current rules as far as I can see.  Even in S1 and S2, I'm not sure there was an improper action upon which to award redress.

One problem presented is the relative scale of things.  The lines depicted are 1-2km long!!!  Laylines are 4km apart!!  It is very likely that boats would not see or hear the committee vessel's flags and sound signals over these distances.  Could a committee vessel sight a 1.5km line effectively.  A practical consideration for OAs is the gear and equipment they have to shorten at islands.

So currently it is left to Race Committees to come up with weird and wonderful SIs to sort out the confusion, but in which more often than not create more confusion!  
Created: 20-Feb-22 08:45
David Norton
Nationality: Hong Kong
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As Ben said, the recent thread agreed that the green track in Scenario1 is correct: https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/512-which-have-finished

Looking at RRS only, ignoring common sense (!), surely that means that the gold track in scenario2 must be the only correct finish. The purple track is analogous to the red track in Scenario1


Created: 20-Feb-22 11:46
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
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Ben, for the most part, I think it's safe to say that these "around the island races" are not unexpected pop-ups in the season, but rather regular events that are repeated year after year.

In that case, I think it would be behoove the OA/RC to define a series of marks (be they land-marks, sections of beach by lat,long, etc) and define them as possible marks of the course in the SI that they can choose from and allow the RC to define the limited mark(s) necessary to:
  1. ensure boats sail around the island in the correct direction
  2. provide for possible shortening (if they believe conditions might require it)

This could be done based upon the conditions that day by course boards on the RC.

As you know the challenge of shortening races at a rounding mark, when for tactical reasons (current, winds, etc) competitors may choose tracks that pass far from them, is common in many distance races and not limited to running around islands.  RC's just have to do all they can and I would think the SI's should require monitoring a VHF channel used by the RC, not just require carrying a radio capable of receiving the channel.

Be minimalist ..
If we go back to my drawing (now with new marks), in reality only 1 mark ...  B thru F is required. 

For instance, a course: Start A, round F to STB, Finish A would also result in a course counter-clockwise around the island with 1 possible shortening point.

By doing this in a "minimalist" way, and understanding in the rules that courses are shortened at rounding marks, it minimizes where the competitors need to lookout for possible shortening.  In essence, this approach is defining the possible shortening points as the primary concern being communicated to the competitors ...  with a fortunate byproduct being that it ensures boats go around the island in the correct direction.

Even if some of these marks are gov't marks surrounded by navigable water, the SI's could state that no boat shall sail between the mark and the island to ensure the string is required to wrap around the island and not the mark.

A very interesting challenge!

image.png 57.5 KB
 
Created: 20-Feb-22 14:43
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Benjamin Harding
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Ang,

It certainly is interesting.  I have been curious about this for over 5 years now.  Time and time again, the same problems are met and the same questions are asked.  Hook finishes still happen in small courses.  Shortened courses at islands still ruin races!

I think your solution definitely works, and may well be appropriate for some OAs for specific long course events.  At other venues, I think naming so many 'psuedo marks' would just be too cumbersome.  Imagine the course booklet for racing in the map area attached below!  I know of one race area which has over 100 courses based around over 30 island marks!!

So I am looking for solutions which could be more generically applied, and by limiting options provide guidance to competitors and budding ROs and standardisation amongst OAs.

In order to avoid the current situation where OAs have to sort this out in the SIs, I wonder whether the RRS should take the lead.  Whether some adjustment of RRS32 is would help.

Again, thanks to all for engaging in the discussion.  I have a clearer picture now I think.

Many Islands Bay
Created: 20-Feb-22 15:21
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Benjamin Harding
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Dave,

I think what is clear from this is that the provision for large marks/courses is minimal.  There are a wealth of interpretations, and methods all around the world to overcome the confusions.  Some are better than others.  Some work, some don't.

That has been exactly what I have been wanting to test with this thread.

32.2 works well for geometric courses.  Not much more is needed.  However, a relatively new RO in an island course simply has RRS 32.2(a) - at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S; to go by, and very limited guidance material which cover the topic.

The table below highlights what I believe the root of the needs, issues and causes are for the current discussion, and in red ideas how I think they could be solved / what needs to be covered to suit.

(Apologies for the poor editing in the table...)

table.png 92.2 KB
Created: 20-Feb-22 15:26
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
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Ben re: "Imagine the course booklet for racing in the map area attached below!  I know of one race area which has over 100 courses based around over 30 island marks!!"

Also in the Chesapeake Bay, we have 4 regions with marks defined and then within those regions, the tributaries have their own set of marks.  We have several races which transcend multiple regions.  They are all in the book and the RC puts course boards out that morning on the water picking out of those many, many marks.

Chesapeake Bay Green Book Regions .. starting here and scroll through 15 pages of maps and marks!
Created: 20-Feb-22 16:06
Justin Scott
Nationality: United States
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Contrast the SIs and course map for two very famous round Island races

The Round the Isle of Sheppey race simply defines the course as sailing clockwise round the isle of Sheppey leaving the island to starboard.
The Round the Island Race (Isle of Wight) uses specific points on the island as rounding marks.

At first glance the IOW Sailing Instructions seem to meet Angelo's requirements better.  Specific points on the island have been defined as marks so there is no doubt as to how the course must be sailed even if the course was shortened.  But hang on a bit......what happens (it has never happened and never will but for arguments sake). what happens if the wind dies and the RC wants to finish the race at St Catherine's point.   Do I have to do a hook finish?

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Created: 20-Feb-22 17:24
Justin Scott
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What happens if the RC shortens course in the IOS race, anchoring the RC boat just off the South Kent can where the course enters the Medway.   Can Red claim they have finished?

 
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Created: 20-Feb-22 17:32
Justin Scott
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Another thought, if the SIs specify that BIg Island  (20 miles x 18 miles) has to be rounded to port. Does this mean that rule 18 is in effect from 3 boat lengths prior to reaching the island, then the whole way round the island , until I am on a course to the next mark?

Defining islands as marks of the course is fraught with issues.


 


Created: 20-Feb-22 17:39
P
Benjamin Harding
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Justin,

In reverse order..

3.  I think an island is a continuing obstruction.  In which case, check 18.1(d) and 19.1.

2.  Isle of Sheppy Race! - Haha!  Imagine someone trying that!  How does Case 129 apply to the case there?

1.  Isle of White Race - I think the 'Round Needles Lighthouse' defines that direction of circumnavigating IoW.  However, can the RO shorten at St. Catherine's Point?  I'm not sure it complies with any of 32.2(a-c).

All good...

Ang - quite an impressive document!  Do you get handicap dispensation if you carry the printed copy on board? 132 pages is worth a pip. No?!
Created: 20-Feb-22 19:05
Tim Hohmann
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Tim,

In an ideal world, the RC would have a number of vessels and spare buoys to hand.  In reality, they may just have one more mark-rib, with an S flag on a broomstick, and a saucepan and wooden spoon!

How about this as an SI then:

"The RC may change the course by laying an alternative finish line. The alternative finish line may be between two marks (one or both of which may be on race committee vessels), or between a race committee vessel displaying an orange flag (or a broomstick, saucepan or wooden spoon) and the nearest point of land on Big Island. The Race Committee will attempt to notify boats via VHF radio if an alternative finish line is to be used."

I think if you did that the boats would still have to take the island to starboard so the purple course would be correct, the location of the finish line and direction to cross would be unambiguous and you could put the new finish line wherever you liked. Might need to figure out what to do with signaling to either comply with or specify a change to rule 33.
Created: 20-Feb-23 07:11
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Benjamin Harding
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Haha!  The saucepan and wooden spoon was to make sound signals, not to display the flag!

I think your SI sounds pretty good.  Effectively you are creating a 'new' finish line mark (even if it is on the island) so that the island can remain a mark and be rounded on its original required side.  Is that right?  I like the VHF radio inclusion.  That's important.

The Rule 33 compliance and how to signal this remains an issue.

What is clear from the previous posts, is that there are many different styles of courses, and course presentation around the world.  People use island marks in different ways.  Some places have an abundance of natural government marks to use, so don't rely on buoys and ribs (See the Chesapeake Bay book).  Some races have one island to deal with, others have many islands.  So, it is going to be hard to find wording which suits everyone.  I realise that.

Yet, I still think there are underlying problems which could be cleared up at RRS level.  I do have an idea of some wording which we may try locally.

In short, my preferred approach is to turn off the elements which prohibit 'hook finishes', when the mark is big.  I think wording which limits options (in turn offers some guidance), but allows flexibility for different OAs to tweak as required is helpful.

Will share later. 

Main thing is that this thread has helped me to straighten my thoughts out, and may have helped an RO consider some issues before he/she next shortens at an island.

Thanks.

Created: 20-Feb-23 10:50
Tim Hohmann
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It does seem like rules 32 & 33 are geared mainly toward windward/leeward courses with buoy type marks. Shortening a longer course that uses landmasses as marks requires a little more anticipation by the RC. 
Created: 20-Feb-23 15:20
Justin Scott
Nationality: United States
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 Isle of Sheppy Race! - Haha!  Imagine someone trying that! 

Hi Ben,

I did . It is a bucket list event and I checked it off the bucket list over 30 years ago. It was a huge amount of fun, especially getting under the bridge. The real race is to keep on schedule for the tides.    Amazingly the competition was close the whole way around....and sailing a dinghy at full pelt for 5-6 hours is gruelling .....but the scenery and camaraderie was great.  After 5+ hours I was close tacking up the shore within 1/4 mile of the finish when my mast broke. I was younger then,  foolish and determined. I finished the race!     I highly recommend it to anyone. Life needs to be lived to the full. I would like to do it again 40 years later...but in something a little more sedentary than I was sailing back then.
It would never have occurred to anyone to treat the island as a mark of the course,  it was treated as a continuing obstruction and something we had to sail around anti clockwise.  However....it is effectively at version of your "Big Island" course  with a very big island.  The course was to cross the start line (the start line is offshore between a boat and a pin) and then leave the island to starboard. The finish line was between a point on the island  and a mark off the island (similar to your shorten course)   It is academic because AFAIK  the IOS has never shortened course. It is an endurance race and some have taken 10 hours to finish it, if you are still out there after dark, they will come looking for you.. 

The authors of the RRS cannot anticipate every course that a RO can contemplate.  When an island is the course or a mark of the course, I think the SIs and the officials including the judges have to develop a pragmatic solution.  
Created: 20-Feb-23 17:08
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