Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Rule 28 is ok ???

Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina

At the finish line, at position N°6,   does green comply with  RRS 28?


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Created: 20-Jan-22 02:31

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Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
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2
Where is the last mark located?
Created: 20-Jan-22 02:35
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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  • Fleet Measurer
1
Catalan, assuming the previous mark was off the top of the drawing, when you pull the “string” tight, on what side of the pin does string pass?
Created: 20-Jan-22 03:09
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
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4
See Case 106
Assuming a downwind finish; Yellow and Green comply with RRS 28. Blue and Red do not comply.

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Created: 20-Jan-22 03:31
Steve Kuritz
Nationality: United States of America
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1
Assuming that the last mark is above the finish line, this will not meet the requirements of RRS 28.2.  The string will unwind at the finish line and pass outside the pin
Created: 20-Jan-22 03:32
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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2
 Mark, Pretty drawing!

It looks like a Rorschach Test for sailors.  I see a smiling fellow with a handlebar mustache. :-)
Created: 20-Jan-22 03:37
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH !!!

Created: 20-Jan-22 08:24
Christian Hartmann
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
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0
for my understanding ....
@Mark:  the string of the green boat will touch the finish committee boat ...
Q: does touching comply with a "definition" of passing, as used in Rule 28.2. a and b? 
thx a lot
Created: 20-Jan-22 09:16
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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0
Christian, to answer your question look to the definition of “Finish” first.  You will notice that as soon as any part of the boat crosses the finish-line from the course-side, that boat has finished.

[RRS 28 stops drawing the string once a boat finishes ... “... a string representing a boat's track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she finishes ...”]

[Also a boat need not sail across the line ... “After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely.”]

For instance, assume a really bad adverse current, a boat could put their bow across, drop sails and float backwards and still be finished

Therefore the string gets “trimmed” at the line [once a boat finishes]  and then drawn taught, so yes Green’s string “passes” the RC on the proper side. 
Created: 20-Jan-22 12:40
Christian Hartmann
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
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>>  the string gets “trimmed” at the line and then drawn taught, so yes Green’s string “passes” the RC on the proper side.

that's exactly my point here. (i'm not a native speaker) ... during the race, a boat shall pass all marks (specifically rounding marks) in way, it does NOT touch the mark. this is my understanding of passing. the rule says: the taut line shall touch (only) rounding marks and pass all the others (including the finishing) marks. so .. i'm still unsure, if touching is an (allowed) way to pass ;)

if the rule does make a difference of touching ad passing ... does the one (pass) include the other (touch)?

Created: 20-Jan-22 12:50
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Angelo Guarino
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Christian, the way I think about it (just my opinion) is that the string “touching” the mark on the correct side is a subset of “passing” it on the correct side.  Therefore, all strings that touch on the correct side also pass on the correct side, but the opposite is not true.  All strings that pass on the correct side, do not touch on the correct side. 
Created: 20-Jan-22 13:09
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Angelo Guarino
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PS: Christian, I should apologize for using "subset" in my last answer to you, as that might not translate well for you.  So in the terms that you used in your question .. 

In this context, "touching the correct side" includes in it "passing on the correct side", but "passing on the correct side" does not necessarily include "touching the correct side".

I've tried to think of a situation where that would not be true, but I couldn't think of one.  

Anyone else think of a situation that breaks that statement?

Ang
Created: 20-Jan-22 17:35
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
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0
Mark - while I agree that red doesn't comply I would argue that blue does.  
Created: 20-Jan-22 22:33
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Angelo Guarino
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Created: 20-Jan-22 22:57
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
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Which I think would negate Case 60 - which in the answer states -
When the course requires boats to pass between two marks at a finishing line or at a gate, a boat complies with rule 28.2 if the string representing her track when drawn taut passes between the marks from the direction of the previous mark. She complies with rule 28.2 even if the string also passes one mark of the finishing line or gate on the non-required side. In this case the boat passed the buoy serving as a mark of the finishing line on the non-required side before passing it on the required side.

She passes the pin on the wrong side.  She then crosses the line in the wrong direction and turns and recrosses the line in the direction from the previous mark and leaves the pin and RC boat on the proper sides. What am I missing?
Created: 20-Jan-22 23:09
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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1
Sue, drawing the strings pulled-tight in Mark's diagram, this is what I see .... (for clarity, I took a little creative license and drew a previous mark rounded to port). - Ang

[Edit: I fixed the 1st version of the drawing, extending Red's string beyond the finish-line as Red never finished, thus her string is still being drawn.]

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PS .. Beyond 28,. I don't think there is any official instruction of how the string reacts when pulling it tight, but based upon my reading of the rules and in my own words they would be ...
  1. 1st, create an end point at the position “she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start”
  2. Next, follow the boat's path as it passes and rounds marks
  3. Lastly, create an end point at the position the boat crosses the finish line to finish
  4. Finally, pull the slack out of the string until only straight lines remain between the starting-point, marks, to the finish .. as well as allowing the string to wrap along boundaries of un-navigable waters if they exist between the start, finish or rounding marks.

PS PS .. Case 60 is currently withdrawn ..
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Created: 20-Jan-23 00:24
John Standley
Nationality: Australia
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1
I refer to Sue's comment when she states 'Mark - while I agree that red doesn't comply I would argue that blue does. ' and also to other comments about the string 'being trimmed after a boat finishes'.
I do not believe Blue has complied fully with rule 28.2 as, even though a trimmed string would lie on the correct side of each finishing mark there is nothing in the rules to advise that the string should be trimmed. I believe the string should be continuous and after a boat finishes is pulled tight. If this is the case Blue's string lies on the wrong side of the pin.
Also 28.2(a) requires the sting to pass on the correct side AND in the correct order. Passing the pin first to port and then not correctly unwinding means the mark has not ben passed on the correct side AND in the correct order.
I agree however the only course for the RC is to record the boats finishing time and then protest her if they are unsure she has sailed the course.
Created: 20-Jan-23 01:49
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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John re: “...even though a trimmed string would lie on the correct side of each finishing mark there is nothing in the rules to advise that the string should be trimmed.”

The reason I suggest trimming the string at the point a boat finishes is 2-fold (though the string should not be trimmed at the start-point as I earlier implied ... since fixed). 

Firstly, I think that is what 28.2 dictates ..
“...A string representing a boat's track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she finishes”

Secondly, if after a boat finishes, she decides to not completely cross the line but instead backs away from the line to clear it, and one continues to draw the string ...and later pull it tight, one might be tempted to allow the string to pull away from the finish and interpret a problem with the finish where one does not exist. 
Created: 20-Jan-23 03:22
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
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Thanks John.

There appear to be two relevant cases that cover the original situation, Case 90 and Case 106.

In the original diagram (see below) the green boat finishes at position 6, when the boat "crosses the finishing line from the course side". However, she does not comply with rule 28.2, as when the string representing her track is drawn taught it will not pass through the finishing line and therefore will not leave the port-end mark on the required side.
 
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In the diagram I included (see below); Yellow, Green and Blue cross the finishing line from the course side; Yellow at position 4, Green at position 6 and Blue at position 6, however only Yellow and Green comply with rule 28.2, as when the string representing Blue's track is drawn taught it does not pass through the finishing line and when Red's is drawn taught it does not leave the port-end mark on the required side.

Although the incident in Case 90 is at a start, boat B's course in Case 90 is the same as blue's course in the diagram below with respect to rule 28.2 compliance.

Am I missing something?

Who finishes, who breaks 28.2?
Created: 20-Jan-23 03:29
John Standley
Nationality: Australia
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0
Greens course is, like Yellow,  to go from the previous mark and sail through the finishing line leaving the CV to port and the pin to starboard in that order. She sails from the previous mark then the pin to port, then the CV to port then the pin to starboard and the CV to port. I agree (as I think we all do) that Green has met the definition of finishing but contend she has not complied with the second part of 28.2(a).
I  agree Red has not finished - nor has she sailed the course. Yellow has finished and sailed the course.
To Ang To me the string stops and disconnects from the boat when she finishes ( which is probably what you mean by trimmed), but to emphasise my point when Greens string is pulled tight it initially passes the pin to port so it does not lie on the correct side in the correct order. 
Created: 20-Jan-23 03:47
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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John in regard to Green, I’d hang my hat on Case 90.  Green here is like Boat A in Case 90 IMO (just opposite order as Mark pointed out since 90 has start-scenarios instead of finish-scenarios).  
Created: 20-Jan-23 04:28
John Standley
Nationality: Australia
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With respect I see it slightly differently.
In case 90 the start marks are passed on the required side and the next mark is the windward mark. The marks have been passed on the correct side in the correct order. 
There is also case 106 which covers the finish line.
 I appreciate my opinion is different from case 106. Whilst I would respect the case in a protest scenario I do not believe it properly takes account of the words 'in the correct order' in 28.2(a). I fail to see why this is not relevant. (the word used in the Case summary).
Created: 20-Jan-23 04:55
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
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Although I understand your argument, aren't we bound by case 106.

Case 106 Question
Has the boat complied with rule 28.2?

Case 106 Diagram


Case 106 Answer
Yes. When the course requires boats to pass between two marks at a finishing line or at a gate, a boat complies with rule 28.2 if the string representing her track when drawn taut passes between the marks from the direction of the previous mark. She complies with rule 28.2 even if the string also passes one mark of the finishing line or gate on the non-required side. In this case the boat passed the buoy serving as a mark of the finishing line on the non-required side before passing it on the required side.
Created: 20-Jan-23 05:40
John Standley
Nationality: Australia
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Mark,
As said earlier I respect the case but this does not preclude discussions such as this. It is through this type of discussion that rules get changes and sometimes cases are reviewed.
Created: 20-Jan-23 07:00
Christian Hartmann
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
0
thx a lot for this discussion!

i've reconsidered my view and altered my interpretation now.  i would assume that the correct order is given for boat G even if other marks not required on any leg are passed or touched in between, what is the case here for the finishing pin and the CV before boat G is finishing right.

same is true, if boat passes e.g. mark 1 and 1a (running mark) altough 1a is not required for this leg (e.g. for a run). same for a gybe mark on a downwind leg. in other words: 1a or the gybe mark are meaningless on the specific leg. you may leave thes on any side you want, as they are not marks for the specific leg.

said that, rule 28.2. a would read as:   
pass (required) each mark on the required side and in the correct order

but actualy it does not!  i'm with John here ;)

Created: 20-Jan-23 07:49
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
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Thanks all for some great arguments for and against.  
My problem is the wording in the 2 cases seem to be in conflict.  (Case 106 and 128.  (not sure where I got case 60 in my original post)) 
So which do we use as a basis for a decision in a protest?  
Both Cases show a boat sailing to the incorrect side of a finish mark, tuning the boat back and recrossing in the correct direction.  The only difference I see is in Case 106 the boat rounded both the pin and the RC boat on the incorrect side before crossing correctly.  That  being said Case 106 states - "even if the string also passes one mark of the finishing line or gate on the non-required side"
Created: 20-Jan-23 15:58
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
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IMHO. In case 128 boat A finishes between position 3 and 4 after crossing the line in the wrong direction between positions 2 and 3. In the original post green finishes at position 6 after crossing the line in the wrong direction at position 4.

In case 128 the boat finishes between position 3 and 4 after crossing the line in the wrong direction between positions 2 and 3. In the original post green finishes at position 6 after have crossing the line in the wrong direction at position 4.

As both boat A and green finish so they get scored per rule A5.

To comply with rule 28.2, a string representing a boat's track must, when drawn taut, pass mark F on the required side. Boat A in Case 128 and Green in the original post made an error under rule 28 at the line because the string representing her track, when drawn taut, passes mark F on the wrong side. Boat A / Green did not correct that error, and therefore she broke rule 28.2. As rule A5 states, only the protest committee may penalize Boat A / Green for her breach. Therefore, Boat A / Green can be penalized only if a valid protest is made against her and the protest committee decides that she broke the rule.
Case 128 diagram



Original Post

The better question on the original post might have been.
1) Does green finish at position 6? (Yes)
2) Does green comply with rule 28? (No)
Created: 20-Jan-23 17:18
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
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  • Regional Judge
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0
I agree with you howeverI still would argue that Case 106 states differently:

When the course requires boats to pass between two marks at a finishing line or at a gate, a boat complies with rule 28.2 if the string representing her track when drawn taut passes between the marks from the direction of the previous mark. She complies with rule 28.2 even if the string also passes one mark of the finishing line or gate on the non-required side. In this case the boat passed the buoy serving as a mark of the finishing line on the non-required side before passing it on the required side.
Created: 20-Jan-23 17:23
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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Sue, look at my string-only straight-line drawing and you will see the difference (my Blue track vs Green track).  In that context, Case 106 (Green track)  and Case 128 (Blue track) are not in conflict.  When pulled tight, Blue (Case 128) DOES NOT pass the mark on the proper side, but Green (Case 106) does, even though it also passes a mark on the non-required side.

Created: 20-Jan-23 17:50
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
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  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
I see that - my problem is the wording of 106 describes EXACTLY what the green boat (and the boat in Case 128) does, and case 106 has her complying with RRS 28 and Case 128 says she doesn't comply. 

"She complies with rule 28.2 even if the string also passes one mark of the finishing line or gate on the non-required side. In this case the boat passed the buoy serving as a mark of the finishing line on the non-required side before passing it on the required side."
Created: 20-Jan-23 18:02
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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Sue, I'd focus on the word "also" in your highlighted section.  The Blue line (case 128) ONLY passes the mark on the wrong "side".

"Side" here is the side of the string .. not the side of the mark.  The string must pass the pin-mark to starboard and the flag on the RC to port (the port/starboard side of the string being based upon imagining a boat going along the string, start to finish, bow-first).

Blue only passes the pin mark to port and the flag to starboard.
Created: 20-Jan-23 18:09
Sue Reilly
Nationality: United States of America
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  • Regional Judge
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Ok I see that. I don't like it but I see my error. 
Created: 20-Jan-23 19:07
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