Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Rule 20 Vs rule 18

David Dalli
Nationality: Malta
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
I believe that in the depicted situation Blue may under rule 20 hail for room to tack and avoid green on starboard. I do not understand however why red has to respond by tacking when under rule 18 she has room at the mark. If she does tack and hits the Mark can she not protest Blue under rule 18?
Rule 20.jpg 37 KB
Created: 19-Dec-06 20:27

Comments

John Ball
Nationality: Canada
1
For the answer, see R 20.2(e)

(e) From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided a
hailed boat, rule 18.2 does not apply between them. 
 

John
Created: 19-Dec-06 21:09
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John Porter
Nationality: United States of America
1
My take:

Rule 19 applies.  When considering 19(b), rule 18 applies between blue and red and the obstruction is another boat. For 19(b) to "turn off" rule 19, the other boat must overlap them both. The definition of overlap says it applies on opposite tacks when 18 apples. 18.1(a) says 18 does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. 

Because 19 applies, the right-of-way boat may choose to pass the obstruction on either side. Between Blue and Red, Blue is right-of way.  (RRS 10).

If blue chooses to exercise her rights under 20.1, as John Ball pointed out, 20.2(e) says 18 turns off. If red does not respond to the hail by tacking as soon as possible or replying "you tack," she should be penalized. 

Created: 19-Dec-06 21:15
Warren Nethercote
Nationality: Canada
0
Red is in a tough spot.  Yes, she has mark room on blue, but both red and blue are on port and rule 18 does not apply between them and green.  Blue and red must keep clear of green and should they choose to do so by tacking, whether voluntarily or under rule 20, they will become subject to rule 18.3.  Aside from the rule 18.3 issue, when red goes through head to wind in her tack, rule 18.2d turns off rules 18.2b and c, so  any 'conflict' between rules 18 and 20 disappears.
Created: 19-Dec-06 21:18
David Dalli
Nationality: Malta
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
I would be interested to know if 20.2 (e) was written with this situation in mind. What about the situation if red touches the Mark? Is this an incident with a boat required to give her mark room . Is she exonerated ? 
Created: 19-Dec-06 22:02
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Anyone else think text of 20.2(e) feels “out of place” to some extent ... almost buried?

I feel it would be more appropriately the last sentence of 20.1 for some reason. 

 
Created: 19-Dec-06 22:22
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
1
 What about the situation if red touches the Mark? Is this an incident with a boat required to give her mark room . Is she exonerated ? 
From the moment Blue hails for room to tack, 18.2 does not apply.  Blue is therefore not required to give Red mark room.  Additionally, if the mark was also an obstruction, rule 19 would not apply - see 19.1(a).
Blue does not break a rule by hailing for room to tack, so Red cannot be exonerated if she hits the mark while tacking in response to Blue's hail.
However, Red is required to tack "as soon as possible" after the hail (unless she hails "you tack").  If, at the time of the hail, she is unable to tack without hitting the mark, then "as soon as possible" would be when she can tack without hitting the mark.   In that case, Blue's hail for room to tack is far too late.
Created: 19-Dec-07 00:17
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Let’s take away the Mark from the scenario and place a new STB boat under spinnaker to windward and on opposite course of Red (who is on port), such that if Red tacks when hailed by Blue, Red either collides with the STB boat or tacks directly in her immediate path too close for STB to avoid a collision. 

What is Red to do then?   I can’t see any provision in the rules for a condition where the boat who is hailed for room to tack, cannot because of a lack of room to do so due to a boat on opposite tack.  
Created: 19-Dec-07 03:31
David Dalli
Nationality: Malta
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
However, Red is required to tack "as soon as possible" after the hail (unless she hails "you tack").  If, at the time of the hail, she is unable to tack without hitting the mark, then "as soon as possible" would be when she can tack without hitting the mark.   In that case, Blue's hail for room to tack is far too late.
I agree with this train of thought . So in essence the timing of blue's hail is critical, Especially in the not so uncommon case that Red must tack into an oncoming ROW boat. 
With a Mark it may be argued that red could be exonerated if blue's call is late and therefore Red is acting under rule 14. Though I cannot find a rule to support this.
But with an oncoming ROW boat thrown in the mix ;this is a spaghetti recipe.  

Created: 19-Dec-07 06:54
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
The 'possible' condition in rule 20.2c is the saver, whether there is a mark or another boat in the way.

If it is not possible for the hailed boat to tack without touching the mark or contacting another [right off way] boat, she is not required to tack at that time (but there had better not have been a time before that, but after the hail, when it was possible to tack without hitting anything).
Created: 19-Dec-07 08:06
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
In my opinion, Red MUST TACK and PROTEST Blue
20.2 Responding
(b) A hailed boat ( Red ) shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.

Blue breaks rrs-20.1
20.1 Hailing A boat may hail for room to tack and avoid a boat on the same tack. However, she shall not hail unless 
(a) she is approaching an obstruction and will soon need to make a substantial course change to avoid it safely,
Created: 19-Dec-07 10:19
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
1
OK, assuming that B hails, which according to OP she has not yet done.

In what way do you say B fails to comply with rule 20.1a?
Created: 19-Dec-07 13:10
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John: re “possible” as the saving grace

I thought about that, but I think it falls short.  

“Room” includes the important “seamanlike way”.  As we’ve covered here in other threads, Cases and Calls have made it clear that hitting things is not seamanlike.  It is “possible” to maneuver in a way that a boat contacts things like marks and mark boats, but we rely upon “seamanlike” to keep that out of the range of what is acceptable to be compelled to do. 

Without a reference to “room”, “without breaking a rule” or direct reference to “seamanlike way”, I don’t think “possible” quite cuts it. 

PS: Also “I can’t give you room to tack” is not an acceptable response.  
Created: 19-Dec-07 14:31
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John Porter
Nationality: United States of America
1
I think we would all agree that if the choice was red hitting a standard tetrahedron mark or blue getting T-boned by Green, the mark would be the better collision. You can certainly argue that blue should have hailed sooner, but so long as the mark isn't a steel government marker that could damage red, the best common sense outcome is red hitting the mark, not red forcing blue to collide with green. 
Created: 19-Dec-07 14:57
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
John P, I think the best solution would be for Blue to duck Green, having been made aware that Red cannot comply in time. 
Created: 19-Dec-07 15:05
Jim Clark-Dawe
Nationality: United States of America
1
Remember that Rule 20 provides Red with two options. The first is that Red tacks, the second is that Red hails "You tack!" and avoids Blue. Red can hail "You tack!" and immediately sheet out, letting Blue get clear ahead and with room to tack. Blue is then forced to tack under Rule 20.2(d) even if Blue is forced to pass on the wrong side of the mark. If Blue does not tack as soon as possible so that Blue can pass on the correct side of the mark, Blue would break Rule 20.2(d) and possibly Rule 18.3 with Green, and leaving Red with a protest. 

This comes up a lot in frost bite series set in narrow bodies of water.

Jim Clark-Dawe
Created: 19-Dec-07 16:53
John Eilers
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
As drawn it looks like Blue could cross green and then tack.  Green may need to be a little sporting about that but would still be ahead of Blue.  Red could then go for the mark and hope not to foul under 18.3.  It shows it is a fools errand to enter the three boat length circle on Port.  It looks like this can be sorted out with out a penalty.  Idealy Blur should have seen Green in time to bear off and go behind - leavening room for red to do the same if she so chose.
Created: 19-Dec-07 18:04
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
  
David Dalli wrote:


With a Mark it may be argued that red could be exonerated if blue's call is late and therefore Red is acting under rule 14. Though I cannot find a rule to support this. 

Exoneration would not be available under rule 21 as, after Blue hails for room to tack, Red is no longer entitled to room or mark-room.  Blue has not broken a rule by hailing, and therefore exoneration would not be available under 64.1(a) either.  The only way for Red to be exonerated under 64.1(a) is if Blue had broken a rule and that breach compelled Red to hit the mark.
Created: 19-Dec-07 18:50
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
FWIW (since this discussion started), I’ve done some research on “as soon as possible”, looking through WS Cases and US/RYA Appeals (Cases).  I also looked for the term “unable”, thinking that the write-ups could have been put in terms of the opposite of “possible”.

I could not find any Case/Appeal that discusses the interpretation of “as soon as possible” in  terms other than discussing “time to respond”.   

I couldn’t find any write-ups which talk about “possible”, in relation to RRS 20, regarding the ramifications of breaking other rules by tacking, or limited to act by other obstructions (like a 3rd ROW boat) or a mark or object. 

If anyone knows of any that I missed that would be informative, please post the citations as I certainly could  have missed something. 
Created: 19-Dec-08 14:52
Bob Lewis
Nationality: Canada
1
Angelo, I might be misunderstanding your post but it seemed to me that you are trying to connect “as soon as possible” to “not breaking rules” or “not hitting things” for situations where “Room” is not being claimed because the Room cases clearly state you don’t have to break rules or hit things.

Case 54 states:

If [the boat hailed] does not immediately hail back “You tack”, [the hailing boat] must give the [boat hailed] the time required for a competent, but not expert, crew to prepare for and execute her tack in a seamanlike manner as soon as possible in the prevailing conditions. [my bolding]

This seems to add “seamanlike” to the “soon as possible” requirement.  

If we could say that “seamanlike” includes not breaking rules then this would protect the responding boat that delays her tack until it can be done without breaking any rules.  I can’t find an authority that is that broad.  However, in Case 14, a 16.1 room case, the committee states “Touching such a mark risks damaging either the boat racing or the committee boat, and taking such a risk is not seamanlike”.  So I think that would get us far enough to protect the responding boat from having to hit anything.

The definition of Room separates manoeuvring in a seamanlike way from infringing rules so seems to imply they might not be overlapping concepts.  I think an appeal committee would not follow that reasoning but would find that seamanlike manoeuvring does require not breaking rules and that the Room definition is just a tad verbose for the sake of clarity.

Furthermore, the chain of hails allowed in 20.3 would not work unless the hailed boat is allowed to delay her tack while this process works out, but the rule does not explicitly give her that right.  It must be because she does not have to tack if it either breaks a rule or causes a collision.

Created: 19-Dec-09 03:04
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Bob: Yes, Thanks!  I was hoping to find a case that associated “seamanlike way” to the hailed-boat’s tack. Case 54 does just that. (A little embarrassed I missed it).

Also, I would tend to agree with you that the def for Room clearly separates out complying with obligations in Part 2 and 31 from how it is done ... in a seamanlike way.

Room’s definition is not stated as ....
  
The space a boat needs in the existing conditions to maneuver promptly in a seamanlike way, which includes the space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31.

Rather it states ...
.
The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

I think the use of “while” means they are 2 separate things happening simultaneously. 
Created: 19-Dec-09 05:07
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
My Desicion is  DSQ Blue

Red MUST TACK, then PROTEST Blue
20.2 Responding
(b) A hailed boat ( Red ) shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.

Blue breaks rrs-20.1
20.1 Hailing A boat may hail for room to tack and avoid a boat on the same tack. However, she shall not hail unless 
(a) she is approaching an obstruction and will soon need to make a substantial course change to avoid it safely,


What may be another conclusion ?

THANKS !!!!
Created: 19-Dec-10 11:08
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Hi Catalan,
Green is an obstruction to both Blue and Red.  Therefore Blue does not break rule 20.1 as she will need to make a substantial course change to avoid Green.
Created: 19-Dec-10 13:31
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
Hi Murray !!!
Yup !!! as you say, Green is an obstruction to both Blue and Red

For me in the original figure,  is too early to hail.
In figure N°2 is time to hail
Rule-20.22.jpg 36.7 KB
Created: 19-Dec-10 14:01
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
David, I've taken your scenario to the next step in a new thread.

Those interested in playing, can find the new thread here: 18.2 v 18.3 and "Cause"

Ang
Created: 19-Dec-10 20:37
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
2
Catalan Benaros
said Created: Tue 14:01
Hi Murray !!!
Yup !!! as you say, Green is an obstruction to both Blue and Red

For me in the original figure,  is too early to hail.

In OP diagram, boats are less than 2 boat lengths apart.

With boatspeeds between 3 and 5 kts, this is about 10 seconds apart.

Rule 20.1a provides that a boat may hail when she may 'soon need to make a substantial course change'.

Are you really saying that 10 seconds isn't 'soon' before she needs to make the substantial course change?

If there is any doubt, Case 54 Answer 1 provides further guidance

A may hail for room to tack at the time that, to avoid the obstruction safely, she needs to begin the process described in rule 20. She may hail at the moment that allows her sufficient time in the prevailing conditions to
  • hail B for room to tack, and make a second hail in the event B does not respond;
  • give B time to respond (see Answer 2 below);
  • give time for any additional boat that must respond for A to have room to tack (see Case 113); and
  • tack herself, as soon as possible thereafter, in a seamanlike manner and avoid the obstruction.
Created: 19-Dec-13 23:04
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