Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
Rule 20 Vs rule 18
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David DalliNationality: Malta
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(e) From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided a
hailed boat, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.
John
Because 19 applies, the right-of-way boat may choose to pass the obstruction on either side. Between Blue and Red, Blue is right-of way. (RRS 10).
I feel it would be more appropriately the last sentence of 20.1 for some reason.
Blue does not break a rule by hailing for room to tack, so Red cannot be exonerated if she hits the mark while tacking in response to Blue's hail.
However, Red is required to tack "as soon as possible" after the hail (unless she hails "you tack"). If, at the time of the hail, she is unable to tack without hitting the mark, then "as soon as possible" would be when she can tack without hitting the mark. In that case, Blue's hail for room to tack is far too late.
What is Red to do then? I can’t see any provision in the rules for a condition where the boat who is hailed for room to tack, cannot because of a lack of room to do so due to a boat on opposite tack.
I agree with this train of thought . So in essence the timing of blue's hail is critical, Especially in the not so uncommon case that Red must tack into an oncoming ROW boat.
With a Mark it may be argued that red could be exonerated if blue's call is late and therefore Red is acting under rule 14. Though I cannot find a rule to support this.
But with an oncoming ROW boat thrown in the mix ;this is a spaghetti recipe.
If it is not possible for the hailed boat to tack without touching the mark or contacting another [right off way] boat, she is not required to tack at that time (but there had better not have been a time before that, but after the hail, when it was possible to tack without hitting anything).
20.2 Responding
(b) A hailed boat ( Red ) shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.
Blue breaks rrs-20.1
20.1 Hailing A boat may hail for room to tack and avoid a boat on the same tack. However, she shall not hail unless
(a) she is approaching an obstruction and will soon need to make a substantial course change to avoid it safely,
In what way do you say B fails to comply with rule 20.1a?
I thought about that, but I think it falls short.
“Room” includes the important “seamanlike way”. As we’ve covered here in other threads, Cases and Calls have made it clear that hitting things is not seamanlike. It is “possible” to maneuver in a way that a boat contacts things like marks and mark boats, but we rely upon “seamanlike” to keep that out of the range of what is acceptable to be compelled to do.
Without a reference to “room”, “without breaking a rule” or direct reference to “seamanlike way”, I don’t think “possible” quite cuts it.
PS: Also “I can’t give you room to tack” is not an acceptable response.
This comes up a lot in frost bite series set in narrow bodies of water.
Jim Clark-Dawe
Exoneration would not be available under rule 21 as, after Blue hails for room to tack, Red is no longer entitled to room or mark-room. Blue has not broken a rule by hailing, and therefore exoneration would not be available under 64.1(a) either. The only way for Red to be exonerated under 64.1(a) is if Blue had broken a rule and that breach compelled Red to hit the mark.
I could not find any Case/Appeal that discusses the interpretation of “as soon as possible” in terms other than discussing “time to respond”.
I couldn’t find any write-ups which talk about “possible”, in relation to RRS 20, regarding the ramifications of breaking other rules by tacking, or limited to act by other obstructions (like a 3rd ROW boat) or a mark or object.
If anyone knows of any that I missed that would be informative, please post the citations as I certainly could have missed something.
Also, I would tend to agree with you that the def for Room clearly separates out complying with obligations in Part 2 and 31 from how it is done ... in a seamanlike way.
Room’s definition is not stated as ....
Rather it states ...
.
I think the use of “while” means they are 2 separate things happening simultaneously.
Red MUST TACK, then PROTEST Blue
20.2 Responding
(b) A hailed boat ( Red ) shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.
Blue breaks rrs-20.1
20.1 Hailing A boat may hail for room to tack and avoid a boat on the same tack. However, she shall not hail unless
(a) she is approaching an obstruction and will soon need to make a substantial course change to avoid it safely,
What may be another conclusion ?
THANKS !!!!
Green is an obstruction to both Blue and Red. Therefore Blue does not break rule 20.1 as she will need to make a substantial course change to avoid Green.
Yup !!! as you say, Green is an obstruction to both Blue and Red
For me in the original figure, is too early to hail.
In figure N°2 is time to hail
Those interested in playing, can find the new thread here: 18.2 v 18.3 and "Cause"
Ang
In OP diagram, boats are less than 2 boat lengths apart.
With boatspeeds between 3 and 5 kts, this is about 10 seconds apart.
Rule 20.1a provides that a boat may hail when she may 'soon need to make a substantial course change'.
Are you really saying that 10 seconds isn't 'soon' before she needs to make the substantial course change?
If there is any doubt, Case 54 Answer 1 provides further guidance
A may hail for room to tack at the time that, to avoid the obstruction safely, she needs to begin the process described in rule 20. She may hail at the moment that allows her sufficient time in the prevailing conditions to