Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Scenario for the Thanksgiving Weekend

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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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  1. Blue approaches the leeward mark outside of one other boat (not shown for clarity) and is therefore forced into a wide rounding.
  2. After passing the mark, Blue is slow and pinned by the stern of that same boat to windward (not shown).
  3. Between 5 and 6, Blue is clear to tack and completes her tack at 7.
  4. There is minor contact between the hulls at 8, no damage.
  5. Both boats protest.



image.png 86.6 KB
Created: 19-Nov-29 14:13

Comments

Thorsten Doebbeler
Nationality: Germany
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1
Can we solve it before the weekend already? ;)
Created: 19-Nov-29 14:28
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Angelo Guarino
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0
Sure :-)
Created: 19-Nov-29 14:30
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Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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1
At7 Green becomes row and blue is keeping clear. Green then has to give blue room if it alters course. It does not so will get penalised. Blue tries to keep clear and is exonerated
Created: 19-Nov-29 15:11
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
Position N°7 RRS-10, so B must keep Clear and B complies rule 10.
After position 7, when G changes course, turns on RRS-16.
At position N°8 G breaches rule 16 + 14........ and B breaches 10 +14 but is exonerated  for RRS-21

Penalty on G, rrs-16
Created: 19-Nov-29 16:01
Steve Schupak
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I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

Blue gave room to the first boat (not shown), then

Blue tacked onto port of an approaching starboard tack boat.

Green tried to avoid

Penalty on blue
Created: 19-Nov-29 16:13
Carlos Gastelu
Nationality: Argentina
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My guess according to  "(2)...Blue is slow..." is that Green is sailing much faster than Blue. Right after possition 6 Blue becomes Keep Clear boat (R 13). When Green changes course between 6 and 7, Blue is able to keep clear stoping her tack, but she does not. From 7 to 8 Green changes course to avoid contact with Blue. Penalice  Blue (R 10).
Created: 19-Nov-29 16:28
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
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  • International Judge
3
At 7 rule 18 no longer applies.
At 7 Blue, now close-hauled on port is crossing ahead of Green. Green has no need to take avoiding action
Green then alters course to windward and there is contact between Green and Blue.
Green, right of way boat, changing course, failed to give room to Blue to keep clear as required by rule 16.1.
It was reasonably possible for Green to avoid contact as required by rule 14, but she is exonerated under 14b s there is no damage.
It was not reasonably possible for Blue to avoid contact.e

Decision  Green DSQ
Created: 19-Nov-29 16:47
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
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It appears to me that Green was altering to stbd in order to sail the course, not to avoid Blue. Her continued course change from 7 to 8 appears to have caused the contact. Green may have been able to avoid contact by steadying on course at 7, possibly by just slowing her stbd turn and letting Blue cross ahead, or certainly by turning to port (and protesting). 

So I'm in the camp that Green broke 16.1. Green broke 14 but was ROW so absent damage or injury is exonerated. It wasn't reasonably possible for Blue to avoid contact so Blue didn't break 14.

I'd also say that since Green initially acquired ROW at 6, rule 15 was off before the incident. Otherwise, since Green acquired ROW by Blue's action, Blue was not entitled to room to keep clear under 15.
Created: 19-Nov-29 17:57
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States of America
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3
'll give this a try.  In my opinion, the key is Gordon's statement that at position 7, rule 18 no longer applies.  I agree, but I think it might be useful to say why rule 18 doesn't apply.

Here's my take:  From position 1, Green owes Blue mark-room because Blue was clear ahead at the zone (RRS 18.2(b)).  It seems from the diagram that if Green had sailed straight she would not have hit Blue, so her change of course between positions 7 and 8 breaks rule 16.1.  I think at this point the boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward because their proper course is close hauled (see Case 132), so rule 18 does not apply (RRS 18.1(a)).  So Green is not exonerated for breaking rule 16.1 and should be penalized.  

Note that if the diagram were changed slightly so that at positions 7-8 Green was still prevented by the mark from luffing to a close-hauled course, my answer would be completely different.  In that case, the boats are not on a beat to windward.  After position 7, Blue is no longer entitled to room under rule 18.2(b) (see RRS 18.2(c)(2)) so rule 18.2(a) applies and Green, the inside boat, is entitled to mark-room.  When she changes course she is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled and her breach of rule 16.1 is exonerated (RRS 21).  Penalize Blue under rule 10.
Created: 19-Nov-29 18:47
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
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Rob, I feel like 18 turns off around position 5, where Blue is leaving the mark and Green is still approaching it. 
Created: 19-Nov-29 19:11
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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0
Rob (and anyone else), I’d encourage you to make different versions of the scenario an post the image to make it a closer call on 16.1 or explore other rules. 

Tim, regarding Blue “leaving the mark”, that’s an interesting question if she is or not.  If Blue could have held course at 7 and was still close-hauled at 8, Blue would have been closer to the mark at 8 than she was at 7.  Therefore one could argue that at 7 Blue was approaching mark as she was closing the distance to the mark. 

Though this scenario might seem obviously a 16.1 issue to you on the forum, if you put this in front of many racers, they will say that Green had the right to round and come up to her close-hauled course. 
Created: 19-Nov-29 20:52
Tim Hohmann
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one could argue that at 7 Blue was approaching mark as she was closing the distance to the mark.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the fact that Blue is getting closer to the mark after rounding meets the definition of "approaching" for the purposes of rule 18.

To my mind once the mark has been rounded, right to mark room has ended and the mark is no longer influencing a boat's choice of course (because her proper course is now to sail to the next mark), that boat is leaving the mark. 
Created: 19-Nov-29 21:31
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
Is very interesting the USA Appeal US120.
Created: 19-Nov-29 21:35
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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Rob, I’d like to restate your point regarding Case 132 phrased a different way.  Please let me know if you disagree. 

Case 132 establishes, as the test of whether or not boats are on beat to windward (in regards to Rule 18), that 

“...two boats on opposite tacks are considered to be ‘on a beat to windward’
  1. when the proper course for each of them is close-hauled or above ...”

.. and it is NOT that the boats are actually close-hauled or above. 

So, when you make your point about Green still being limited by the mark from luffing up to close-hauled, you are making the distinction, in that case, Green’s proper course at that moment as being defined by ‘rounding’ and ‘sailing close to the mark’, and not being ‘close-hauled’. 

Therefore, the moment Green’s proper course transitions from rounding close to the mark to as being close-hauled, Green is on a beat to windward, even before reaches close-hauled, and therefore 18 turns off at that moment (since Blue satisfies it as well ).  
Created: 19-Nov-29 22:06
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Angelo Guarino
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Tim, 18 says ..

“between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it,”

It doesn’t say, “between a boat approaching a mark [to rounding it] and one leaving it [after rounding it].”

I agree your interpretation is how we generally understand it, but that’s not what the text says. 

Approach: come near or nearer to (someone or something) in distance or time.

PS: By the interpretation above, Green is leaving and Blue is approaching at #7
Created: 19-Nov-29 22:20
Tim Hohmann
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Well, yes, but it also applies only when boats are required to leave the mark on the same side and when one or more are in the zone. If a mark doesn't bound the leg, it doesn't have a required side or a zone, does it? 

If I go by your definition boats are almost always approaching some mark or another. 18 only really makes sense if it's applied when boats are rounding a mark. 
Created: 19-Nov-29 22:31
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Angelo Guarino
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but it also applies only when boats are required to leave the mark on the same side and when one or more are in the zone.

Right. Both of those conditions apply here as well as the mark bounding the leg. 

Frankly, I hadn’t noticed or thought about this before your comment .. but the phrasing of 18 is the phrasing of 18.
Created: 19-Nov-29 22:36
Tim Hohmann
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Though this scenario might seem obviously a 16.1 issue to you on the forum, if you put this in front of many racers, they will say that Green had the right to round and come up to her close-hauled course

I think racers know a lot of things about the rules that just ain't so...  😉

What rules would be cited to support Green's right to come up to close-hauled? Does she assert mark room after Blue's tack? 
Created: 19-Nov-30 03:04
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
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To me this at position 7 seems to be a simple case of port and starboard RRS10. RRS18 turns off as soon as blue has completed her tack to Port. 
We can forget anything to do with the mark at this point. 
RRS 18.“MARK-ROOM
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. 

According to the diagram if Green holds her course she will pass astern of Blue. Blue is keeping clear. 
However when Green changes course she is obliged under 16.1 to give Blue room to keep clear. Green neglected to give this room and there was contact. Blue would have not had any reasonable opportunity to avoid contact and therefore did not break RRS 14. 
Green on the other hand had ample opportunity to avoid a collision but neglected to do so therefore breaking RRS 14 but because there was no injury or serious damage she is exhonourated. 
However she broke 16.1 and is DSQ. 
 

Created: 19-Nov-30 04:14
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Angelo Guarino
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Does she assert mark room after Blue's tack? 

Yes.  Green is owned mark-room by Blue immediately after Blue passes HTW.  At that moment Blue’s 18.2(b) mark-room is turned off by 18.2(d), but 18.2(a) conditions are satisfied. 

From just after 6, until just before 7, Green is inside and overlapped with Blue and Blue therefore owes Green 18.2(a) mark-room.  That mark-room includes “ room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.“, therefore that would be room to round and come to a close-hauled course... as long as 18 still applies.

This is where Rob’s argument using Case 132 comes in.

At #7 (as drawn), Green’s stern has passed the mark and though she has not yet reached a close-hauled-course,  her proper course is to be close-hauled or above and since Blue’s is also, they are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, thus turning off 18.

The opposing argument would be that Green’s Mark-room doesn’t turn off until she reaches close-hauled, meaning she is sailing within room she is owed up until she is on a collision course with Blue at position #7.5.  Then Green takes avoiding action by luffing above close-hauled and is exonerated for breaking 16.1. 
Created: 19-Nov-30 04:26
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
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Green would still be compelled under 16.1 if she changed course to come up to close hauled. At 7 Blue is keeping clear and Green cannot come to close hauled if that change of course denies Blue the Room to keep clear. 
Created: 19-Nov-30 04:58
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
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Have I missed something Angelo
After Blue passes HTW both boats are on opposite tacks RRS 18.2(a) only applies to boats on the same tack and overlapped. 


Created: 19-Nov-30 05:08
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
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Oops my bad Angelo 18.2(a) overlapped but not on same tack. Sorry


Created: 19-Nov-30 11:24
Lloyd Causey
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When it takes a group of judges (some highly rated and experienced) days to never come to a consensus then there are problems with the current mark rounding rules. How can this be resolved in 10-20 minutes in a jury room? I see this discussion going on for days without resolution, just eventual loss of interest.

Created: 19-Nov-30 13:28
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Angelo Guarino
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Lloyd, do you feel there is a different resolution apart from Gordon’s and Rob’s explanation?
Created: 19-Nov-30 14:03
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
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I think this took me about 10 minutes to write up.
I often note that difficulties with understanding the rules are caused by:
- not applying the definitions
- not reading to the end of the sentence when reading a rule
- not setting out the facts in the terms used by the rules.

For instance, in this case it is clear that rule 18 no longer applies as Blue has rounded the mark as necessary to sail the course and has been given the mark room to which she was entitled.

Gordon

Created: 19-Nov-30 14:12
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Angelo Guarino
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Oops my bad Angelo 18.2(a) overlapped but not on same tack. Sorry

Paddy, I think you’ve got it. Def: Overlap applies just after #6 because 18 applies. 

You do expose one issue here and that’s the bit of Catch-22 circular logic in this scenario ...

  1. 18.2(a) applies after #6 because they are overlapped on opposite tacks
  2. They are overlapped on opposite tacks because 18.2(a) applies 
  3. Rinse.  Repeat. 
Created: 19-Nov-30 14:19
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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For instance, in this case it is clear that rule 18 no longer applies as Blue has rounded the mark as necessary to sail the course and has been given the mark room to which she was entitled.

Gordon, that’s not the tricky part ... I think it’s realizing that Green is owed 18.2(a) MR after #6 and that the entirety of 18 turns off at #7 due to Case 132, and not at #7.5 as it would normally have been determined without that case. 
Created: 19-Nov-30 14:26
Rob Overton
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Gordon, you point out correctly that a lot of misunderstanding is caused by not reading the rule thoroughly (and I'd add, not reading preambles and conditions, such as rule 18.1).  But then you say, "it is clear that rule 18 no longer applies as Blue has rounded the mark as necessary to sail the course and has been given the mark room to which she was entitled."  How does that turn off rule 18?

I'd also like to comment on the boat approaching and boat leaving the mark.  First, it's clear this condition refers to the same mark for both boats, so the fact that boats are almost always approaching marks is not relevant -- one boat has to be approaching a particular mark and the other has to be leaving that same mark.  The second point is that "approaching" and "leaving" are not exact opposites.  A boat is only approaching a mark when she has not yet got there, whereas a boat can be leaving that mark at any point that her rounding or passing is nearly complete -- consider the expressions "I'm approaching the store," which surely requires me to not yet be there, and "I'm leaving the store," which I could correctly say while still inside the store and headed for the door.  In any case, rule 18.1(c) does not apply in the diagram because neither boat is approaching the mark.
Created: 19-Nov-30 17:03
Rob Overton
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Angelo asked for a modified diagram in which, at position 7.5, Green and Blue are not on a beat to windward because Green's proper course is not close hauled or above.  Here's one I think meets his criteria.  I drew a new diagram exactly the same as Angelo's original one, but with the mark moved.  I think in this new diagram Green is still rounding the mark between positions 7 and 8.  Green's proper course is not close hauled (she still has to get around the mark before she can go to a close-hauled course) so according to Case 132 they're not on a beat to windward.  They're at a mark they're required to leave on the same side and no rule says rule 18 doesn't apply, so it must apply.  Therefore the boats are overlapped with Green on the inside, and since rule 18.2(d) says rule 18.2(b) doesn't apply, rule 18.2(a) does.  Green is plainly sailing within the room to which she is entitled as she turns to close-hauled, so she is exonerated under rule 21 for breaking rule 16.1.

racingrulesofsailing leeward mark.png 60.6 KB
Created: 19-Nov-30 21:38
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Angelo Guarino
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Just reposting my original image so that Rob’s and mine are easy to compare.

image.png 76.1 KB
Created: 19-Dec-01 13:39
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Angelo Guarino
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Rob:  “The second point is that "approaching" and "leaving" are not exact opposites.”

Maybe an appropriate opposite of “leaving” is “arriving”?  

FWIW, I’m not seriously contesting the common interpretation of those words... it just never occurred to me to examine them starkly before.  

It seems to me that this has echoes of Case 132 in determining when boats, who are not at that moment on a close-hailed course, are still on a beat-to-windward because the larger picture of their proper course. 

Here as well, a boat may be “sailing toward” a mark that she has already rounded (she is closing the distance to it), but she is not “approaching it” in the context of a broader understanding of her proper course being to sail away from the mark, thus “leaving it”.
Created: 19-Dec-01 14:41
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
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Rob asked ' How does that turn off rule 18? '
Blue was entitled to mark room from Green as she was clear ahead at the zone. Green gave that mark room and Blue was given the space needed to sail to and round the mark. Green has no further obligation under rule 18.2b from position 5 onwards.

Neither the definition nor Case 132 state that the proper course is the course a boat is sailing, but rather the course she would sail in the absence of of other boats. In both scenarios at position 7 if Blue was not there Greens would harden up to a close hauled course, this would be her proper course. Therefore both boats are on a beat to windward, on opposite tacks. Rule 18 does not apply.

Created: 19-Dec-01 16:44
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
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If we assume that Green becomes entitled to mark room at 6 (which I don't grant unequivocally, I believe Blue is leaving the mark at 5) then it seems to me that Green is entitled to come up to sail her proper course as she rounds the mark but as soon as the mark is abeam and her proper course (not her heading) becomes close-hauled she's on a beat to windward. So 18 turns off and we're again left with 10 and 16.1. I believe that as Green continues to come up she breaks 16.1 
Created: 19-Dec-01 17:30
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Some picky little comments

Tim Hohmann
said Created: Fri 17:57

I'd also say that since Green initially acquired ROW at 6, rule 15 was off before the incident. Otherwise, since Green acquired ROW by Blue's action, Blue was not entitled to room to keep clear under 15.

G acquired right of way because of B's action in tacking.  Rule 15 never applied at all.

Paddy Fitzpatrick
said Created: Yesterday 04:14
RRS18 turns off as soon as blue has completed her tack to Port. 

So you're talking about @7.

'completing' a tack has no relevance to rules transitions except for rule 13.

I agree that rule 18 ceases to apply @7, but not because B reaches a close hauled course.

@6 plus delta, B passed head to wind onto port tack, opposite tack to G, but G was still sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled so rule 18 applied and the definition of overlap still applied to B and G even though they were on opposite tacks.

@7 minus delta, G was still rounding the mark as necessary to sail the course, thus sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled, that is to say rules 18 and 21 applied, but did not trouble B because she was keeping clear and giving mark-room.

@7, G’s proper course was no longer influenced by the mark and was to sail close hauled.  At this point, and not before boats, on opposite tacks came to be both on a beat to windward and rule 18 in its entirety ceased to apply (rule 18.1a)




Created: 19-Dec-01 23:06
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
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Thanks John
It’s the prickly little things that help to properly understand the nuances in the rules. 

Created: 19-Dec-02 03:54
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States of America
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1
This is mainly in response to Angelo:
Thanks for an entertaining weekend of discussion!  At least here in San Francisco it rained all weekend -- no sailing, no working on the boat, so this discussion was a welcome diversion. 

As the weekend comes to a close, I'm waxing philosophical.  Here's a little history of rule 18, as I recollect it:

Two decades ago, there were a number of conventions that "everybody knew" about rule 18 and mark-room, that weren't actually in the rulebook.  The US Racing Rules Committee decided to attack this problem, and Ben Altman and I set out to include some of those conventions in the rule itself.  Three of these conventions were as follows:

(1) If O, a right-of-way boat, is overlapped outside I as they enter the zone, O cannot luff I above a course that takes her directly to the mark.  At the time, there were team-race and match-race calls to that effect, but no actual rule to support this idea;
(2) If a boat entitled to mark-room under rule 18.2(b) leaves the zone, she looses her entitlement to mark-room under that rule. Especially in team racing, one frequently heard hails of "you're outside the zone!" Nobody ever said "So what", even though there was no rule turning off rule 18.2(b) in that situation; and
(3) Rule 18 does not apply between a boat approaching the mark and one leaving it.  There was a Case stating that a boat finishing her rounding of a port-hand windward mark and bearing off onto a run in front of an arriving port-tacker had to obey rule 16.1, but there was no rule to support that position. I don't believe there was anything written about boats arriving at and leaving a leeward mark.

Ben and I wrote two different new drafts of rule 18.  The US RRC made them into Experimental Rules and people tried them out for a year, at various events.  After gathering data on the experiment (Ben's idea of a 3-length zone instead of 2 was a smashing success), the RRC combined the best features of the two drafts into a proposed new rule 18.  Our proposal was considered by World Sailing (ISAF at the time) and eventually a Working Party was formed, consisting of Richard Thompson and Chris Atkins from the UK, along with Ben, Dick Rose and me from the US.  The result was pretty much what we have today, first published in the 2005-2008 RRS.

When we write a new rule, we try to be brief and clear.  Those two goals frequently conflict, and so it was with our new rule 18 and definition mark-room.  Every time we write something simple, using ordinary English words instead of defined terms, we hold our collective breath and hope sailors will interpret those words as intended and not split hairs.  In some disciplines, such as team and match racing, precision is required because umpires have to make decisions on the spot and sailors are using the rules as weapons, not just shields; so that's where most such issues arise.  Consider the conventions above and the words we wrote to make them into rules:

(1)  We decided to include in the definition of mark-room "room to sail to the mark" (later modified to include this only if the proper course of the boat entitled to mark-room is to sail close to it).  The words "sail to the mark" are a little vague -- suppose an outside overlapped ROW boat allows the inside boat just enough room to sail to the mark and run into it; is that "room to sail to the mark"?  And what if the outside boat first forces the inside boat toward the wrong side of the mark, then at the last moment lets her in?  Has she granted the inside boat mark-room?  Happily, everybody interpreted "sail to the mark" as meaning "sail in a straight line to a place next to the mark where she can begin to round or pass it." 
(2) This was easy.  See rule 18.2(d).
(3)  This resulted in rule 18.1(c), "[Rule 18 does not apply] between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it".  We knew that "approaching" and "leaving" were not precise terms in English, but we hoped that they captured the basic idea -- even if the boat leaving the mark is still at the mark, rule 18 does not apply between her and a boat that has not yet arrived at the mark.  Mercifully, those words seem to have served well, but I'm still holding my breath (especially in light of the discussion this weekend).

One example of where we were disappointed in our hope that our words would be interpreted as we intended was in the expression "at the mark".  Our original version of the definition mark-room said "room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark."  We argued that "at the mark" did not require precise definition because, once a boat was close to the mark her proper course was fixed -- basically, it was always to round it close at hand.  But in this case, some match racers (and umpires) didn't buy that argument and we were compelled to define more precisely what the boat entitled to mark-room could do.  The result was to double the length of the definition mark--room, split the definition into parts, use the awkward term "round the mark as necessary to sail the course", and add a new rule 18.2(c)(2) that gave the boat entitled to mark-room the right to sail her proper course if the other boat became overlapped inside her.  
 
Another example of where we were forced to more carefully define some simple words was in "beat to windward" in rule 18.1.  But don't get me started.
Created: 19-Dec-02 06:51
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
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Tim,

I do not understand how you can assert that Green had, at any time, mark-room.

In the original scenario: Blue entered the zone clear ahead, was clear ahead as she sailed to the mark and then rounded the mark as was clear ahead as she sailed away from the mark. Green had given Blue mark-room as required by 18.2b, which no longer applies.

In the alternate scenario: at 6, or just after, Blue, having been given mark-room by Green, passes head to wind and is on the opposite tack to Green. Green sails to  the mark and starts to harden up towards her proper course which is close hauled. Rule 18 does not apply as boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.


Created: 19-Dec-02 11:09
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Angelo Guarino
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Gordon: “I do not understand how you can assert that Green had, at any time, mark-room.”

Look at both Rob’s and my breakdowns. Green get 18.2(a) MR from just after #6 until just before #7, where Green’s still somewhat abeam of the mark and thus still course-limited by it. Therefore from #6.1-#6.8, Green is owed 18.2(a) MR. 

PS: change what I’ve been saying. As drawn, Blue was given mark-room when she reached close-hauled at 5.5. 

At 6 (as drawn) Green and Blue are overlapped, so 18.2(a) applies at 6.0
Created: 19-Dec-02 12:51
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Angelo Guarino
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Rob, thanks for the insightful post.  You’ve given us these backstories a few times now, and they are great reads!

Ang
Created: 19-Dec-02 13:09
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
In the first case, what may be a conclusion ?

a) Penalty on G, rrs-16
b) Penality on B, rrs-10

Thanks !!
Created: 19-Dec-03 11:15
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
This is the USA Appeal US120
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1465

I think that the situation is very similar, and the change of the course ( rrs-16 ) of Wallopping Swede is the same that Green did in the original case, so Wonder  not broke rrs-10.....and Blue  not broke rrs-10

Cheers !!!!
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Created: 19-Dec-03 15:01
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Catalan, here is my take on an overly-verbose decision write-up, including stuff in brackets [] that wouldn't normally be in FF's.  Folks, please feel free to comment if you feel I got something wrong. - Ang


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(thanks Tim and John for edits)
Facts Found: 
  1.  Blue and Green [edit: both on STB tack] approach a downwind mark to be rounded to starboard under spinnaker.
  2. @1, Blue enters the zone clear ahead of Green, who is 4-5 boat lengths behind Blue
    1. [Green owes Blue 18.2(b) mark-room]
  3. @1, Blue is outside-overlapped and slightly behind Boat-3 (not shown).  Blue takes a wide rounding, providing Boat-3 space between Blue and the mark.
    1. [Blue owes Boat-3 18.2(b) mark-room] 
    2. [Boat-3 must keep-clear Blue via 11]
  4. @4, Green enters the zone, still clear astern of Blue while Blue is rounding the mark, still outside-overlapped and behind Boat-3
  5. @5, Blue's stern passes the mark but is limited from coming up to close-hauled by an overlap with Boat-3's stern as Boat-3 turns to close-hauled and begins pulling away from Blue.
    1.  [edit moved from 5.5: Green gave Blue mark-room, therefore 18.2(b) no longer applies between Blue and Green via 18.2(d)]
  6. @5.2, Blue and Boat-3 are no longer overlapped.  Blue begins to come-up to begin her tack to port.
    1.  [Blue gave Boat-3 mark-room, therefore 18.2(b) no longer applies between Boat-3 and Blue via 18.2(d)] 
    2. [11 turns off between Blue and Boat-3]
  7. @5.5, Blue reaches close-hauled as she starts her tack from STB to Port.
    1.  [Green gave Blue mark-room, therefore 18.2(b) no longer applies between Blue and Green via 18.2(d)]
  8. @6, as Blue nearly reaches HTW mid-tack, Blue becomes outside-overlapped with Green, whose bow is just reaching the mark and starting to round it.
    1.  [Blue owes Green 18.2(a) mark-room]
  9. @6+, Blue passes HTW onto port-tack
    1.  [Blue must keep-clear of Green via 13 until close-hauled on port] 
    2. [Though Blue and Green are on opposite tacks, they are still overlapped because 18 applies between them]
    3. [Though Blue's proper course is to be close-hauled or above, Green's proper course is defined by sailing close to and around the mark, therefore they are not both on a beat to windward and 18 still applied between them]
  10. @7, Blue completes her tack onto STB Port. Green's stern passes the mark.  Green is not yet to a close-hauled course.  If Green were to hold her heading, she would pass astern of Blue.
    1. [13 turns off, Blue must keep-clear of Green via 10] 
    2. [Green's proper course is to be close-hauled or above and Blue is close-hauled, therefore via Case 132 both are on a beat-to-windward and 18 turns off between them via 18.1(a)]
    3. [Green, being ROW via 10 must give Blue room to keep-clear if she changes course via 16.1]
  11. @7.5, Green continued to change course to windward to a close-hauled course, putting Green on a collision course amidship with Blue.  Blue starts turning to windward to avoid Green.
  12. @8, Blue reaches HTW, Green luffs toward HTW to avoid Blue and contact is made between the boats.  There was no damage or injury.

Conclusions:
  1. When changing course, Green, the right-of-way boat, failed to give Blue room to keep clear, and broke RRS 16.1. 
  2. Blue broke RRS 10, a rule of Section A, while she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled and thus is exonerated for breaking RRS 10.
  3. It was not reasonably possible for Blue, a boat entitled to room to avoid contact with Green when it was clear that Green was not giving room.
  4. Green [a ROW boat] did not avoid contact when it was reasonably possible, and broke RRS 14, [edit: but is exonerated via 14(b) as there was no injury or damage].

Decision:
DSQ Green for breaking RRS 16.1 and RRS 14(b).

---------------------------------------------------------------

PS:  I think I could make the argument that Blue was given mark-room by Green at 5, since Blue's inability to come to close-hauled has nothing to do with Green, but rather Blue's obligation to Boat-3 to allow Boat-3 to come up to close-hauled.

Any takers on that idea?
Created: 19-Dec-03 18:09
Catalan Benaros
Nationality: Argentina
0
Thanks you all, very very much !!!
This Forum is a great way for share and learning !!!!

Cheers !!!
Created: 19-Dec-03 19:02
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Ang, regarding Conclusion 4, wouldn't Green be exonerated from 14 by 14(b)? Green was ROW boat at that point and there was no damage or injury.

A couple of nits:

  • Fact 10, I think you mean Blue completes her tack onto PORT
  • I don't think you have a fact anywhere that Green was on STBD and without that I don't think you can conclude that rule 10 was broken. I think I'd put into Fact 1 that both boats are initially broad reaching on STBD

Regarding your PS, I think that Blue's proper course as she rounds must consider her obligation to avoid the unseen "mystery boat" (assuming that Blue owed and gave that boat mark room, which seems like a reasonable assumption). So Blue's proper course (with respect to her Rule 18 situation with at positions 4-5 with Green) is not close-hauled until she can come up without interfering with the other boat.


Created: 19-Dec-03 22:09
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
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Ang well done and very thorough 
Just one nitty gritty Green would be exhonourated for RRS 14(b) since there was no injury or damage. 
Ps thanks for all your efforts to present challenging scenarios 
Paddy
Created: 19-Dec-03 22:17
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Lot of words there Ang.

If Boat 3 was irrelevant to the diagram, then surely she is irrelevant in the written facts found?

By all means start your facts found narratively a bit before the incident, but once your have reached your conclusions about the incident, go back and edit out facts not required to support your conclusions.

Try this.

Facts Found

  1. B and G were in the zone of a mark, but had passed the mark.
  2. B, 2 boat lengths past the mark tacked from starboard onto port tack, and her proper course was to sail close hauled.
  3. G, on starboard tack, was not impeded by the mark, and her proper course was to sail close hauled.
  4. G changed course to windward so that boats were on a collision course, 1 boat length apart.
  5. B, having reached her close hauled course on port tack, but travelling slowly, not having accelerated out of her tack, changed course to windward, in an attempt to keep clear of G.
  6. G continued to change course to windward.
  7. Contact occurred between G's port bow and B's starboard quarter with no injury or damage.
Conclusions
  1. Rule 18 did not apply to B and G, on opposite tacks, their proper courses being to sail to close hauled, thus being on beat to windward, in accordance with rule 18.1a.
  2. B, on port tack did not keep clear of G on starboard tack.  B broke rule 10.
  3. G, a right of way boat changing course, did not give B room to keep clear.  G broke rule 16.1
  4. B, sailing within the room to which she was entitled is exonerated for breaking rule 10 in accordance with rule 21a.
  5. It was not reasonably possible for B to avoid contact with G.  B did not break rule 14.
  6. G did not avoid contact with B when it was reasonably possible to do so.  G broke rule 14.
  7. There being no injury or damage, G a right of way boat, is exonerated for breaking rule 14 in accordance with rule 14b.
Created: 19-Dec-03 22:26
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Tim Hohmann
said Created: Today 22:09
Ang, regarding Conclusion 4, wouldn't Green be exonerated from 14 by 14(b)? Green was ROW boat at that point and there was no damage or injury.

Good Get.

Paddy, well done, you got this one too.

A couple of nits:

  • Fact 10, I think you mean Blue completes her tack onto PORT

Good Get.

  • I don't think you have a fact anywhere that Green was on STBD and without that I don't think you can conclude that rule 10 was broken. I think I'd put into Fact 1 that both boats are initially broad reaching on STBD

Good Get.

Regarding your PS, I think that Blue's proper course as she rounds must consider her obligation to avoid the unseen "mystery boat" (assuming that Blue owed and gave that boat mark room, which seems like a reasonable assumption). So Blue's proper course (with respect to her Rule 18 situation with at positions 4-5 with Green) is not close-hauled until she can come up without interfering with the other boat.

B's proper course before she tacks is irrelevant, but B's proper course will always be not to hit other boats and objects, just as G's proper course near the mark is not to hit the mark.

@5, B has sailed to the mark and rounded it as necessary to sail the course:  she has.been given the mark-room she is entitled to, and rule 18.2b ceases to apply in accordance with rule 18.2d.  From here on only rule 18.2a can apply, but it only applies when boats are overlapped inside and outside.

Between @5 and @5.5, when, as a result of B luffing up into her tack B and G became overlapped, there was no overlap and rule 18.2a did NOT apply.

@5.5 G became overlapped inside B and B was required to give G mark-room (rule 18.2a).

B continued to be required to give G mark-room until @7 when G’s proper course was no longer influenced by the mark and was to sail close hauled.  At this point, and not before, boats, on opposite tacks, came to be both on a beat to windward and rule 18 in its entirety ceased to apply (rule 18.1a). 



Created: 19-Dec-03 22:42
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim, thanks for posting the corrections. “Good gets”. 

John, thanks for posting the concise decision as it would be written in reality (mine was not meant to be). I almost indicated that my warning and declaration of being purposely overly verbose and adding the descriptions in FF that normally wouldn’t belong, was because I knew my friend John would shiver at the sight of it all ;-)

Also, I agree with the PS analysis. Blue was given mark-room at 5 IMO. 
Created: 19-Dec-03 23:16
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
For the record, I'm still of the opinion that 18 turns off at position 5 when Blue is leaving the mark and does not turn back on. Even though B may become physically closer to the mark after tacking, at that point she is proceeding to (approaching) the next mark and leaving the previous mark. So to my mind "opposite tacks on a beat to windward" never enters into it.

But I think we get to the same result either way - sounds like the broad consensus is that G broke 16.1.
Created: 19-Dec-04 17:16
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim said, “18 turns off at position 5 when Blue is leaving the mark and does not turn back on.”

Please let me know what is incorrect below. 

18 applies when the:
  1. preamble to Section C is satisfied
  2. conditions of 18.1 are satisfied, and when
  3. None of 18.1(a-d) are satisfied. 

When 18 applies, next one goes through 18.2(a-f) thru 18.4 to see any of them apply. 

At position 6, all the previous conditions are true, therefore 18 applies. Furthermore, at position 6, Green is inside-overlapped with Blue, therefore 18.2(a) applies between them until position 7, where 18.1(a) turns off 18. 
Created: 19-Dec-06 04:16
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Angelo, we talked about this before - my view is that once a boat has rounded mark A and is proceeding to mark B, she is leaving mark A so 18 is off under 18.1(c) thereafter. I feel the boat is still leaving mark A even if, as at position 7, she is incidentally getting closer to it. So in my view the conditions of 18.1 are not satisfied after position 5 - Blue is leaving and Green is approaching.

I acknowledge the view that "getting closer to" = "approaching" in all instances but I don't think that's the sensible definition to use for the purpose of rule 18.
Created: 19-Dec-06 17:03
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