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Recent Posts
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8 CommentsPJohn Allan, Today 00:12
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13 CommentsAlan Chidsey, Yesterday 11:00
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14 CommentsPJohn Quirk, 26-Jul-13 08:25
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32 CommentsÓlafur Bjarnason, 26-Jul-12 17:08
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28 CommentsPJohn Allan, 26-Jul-09 10:54
Recent Comments
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" What I had in mind (with some trepidation) was moving towards a 'No Flag No Foul' approach.
If there is no hail of 'protest' and if required display of red flag at the first reasonable opportunity, I am proposing that the there should be no obligation on a boat to take a RRS 44 penalty. "
My old sailing sailing mentor - Paul Elvstrøm would be doing 360's in his grave if he heard your proposal............
I think this would be a very big step in the wrong directionChristian Jensen Today 03:29 -
Brad: I don't think so. We have established that the boat on the right in the diagram, boat T, is the 'inside' boat. She is overlapped. But she is not a right-of-way boat, as she is the windward boat in the overlap with C. So she must keep clear under 11. So she doesn't meet the requirements of 18.4 She also has no need to gybe at the mark to sail her proper course.
18.4 typically applies in a situation like the following, where boat A is inside, right-of-way (starboard tack while B is on Port), and overlapped.
Boat A must gybe at the mark to sail her proper course. She can sail to her proper course, which is the one she would sail in the absence of the other boat in order to sail the course as quickly as possible, but she can sail no farther from the mark than needed to do so. [See the definition of proper course] So in this case, she may swing wide, then sail close to the mark as she gybes, and obey 18.4Vince Harris Today 02:43 -
Ang, "I would quite like to see the construct of RRS 44 changed so that time for a boat to take an on-water penalty ran from the hail of 'protest'."
Tentatively, the change would be to replace 'the incident' in RRS 44.2 and 44.3 with 'the hail of "protest" and, if required, the display of a red flag'
What I had in mind (with some trepidation) was moving towards a 'No Flag No Foul' approach.
If there is no hail of 'protest' and if required display of red flag at the first reasonable opportunity, I am proposing that the there should be no obligation on a boat to take a RRS 44 penalty.
If there is no If there is no hail of 'protest' and if required display of red flag at the first reasonable opportunity there can be no valid protest and no hearing.
I think it is fair and just to say that a boat should not be required to voluntarily take a penalty when there is no power to give an involuntary penalty.
Maybe an interpretation of 'promptly take an appropriate penalty' would be needed as follows:
A boat may promptly take an appropriate penalty by:- taking a penalty in accordance with RRS 44;
- taking a post-race penalty in accordance with RRS T1; or
- accepting, subject to any request for re-opening or Appeal, the decision of a protest committee penalising her.
I'll run this in a separate post.
MeanwhileAt first reading, I was nodding in support, but then thought how difficult it is now to convey the idea that a fouled boat can't tell another boat that broke an unexonerated-rule "don't worry about it" .. or worse .. "you owe me one".
Why would you want to convey that idea to a boat?
Fouled boats do that all the time by refraining from hailing 'protest' and displaying the red flag.
I don't feel too concerned about slangy converastions between boats on the water.We also have boats who don't take the rules seriously and never hail protest
As they are entitled to do. RRS 60.1 A boat ... may protest a boat... and others maybe because of social pressures or their perceived status on the water.
I don't see how, as judges we can 'socially engineer' that problem, such as it is.I'm afraid that the 2 points above will be a viscous cycle even more so than now.
I'm not good at hydraulic engineering, but do you by any chance mean 'vicious circle'?
What is it that you think if particularly vicious?John Allan Yesterday 23:44 -
Interesting discussion, thanks.
In a similar vein. A boat has 2 handicaps - one with kite, one white sail. But they (rightly) declare the kite handicap and the, should the conditions dictate - have to stick with that handicap whether or not THEY chose to fly a kite. In my mind (and reading) you can't choose to use the white sail handicap just because you decided ( or were forced) to not to fly a kite?Tom Smith Yesterday 07:30 -
Dustin, I think a lot of your points are well made, but it's perhaps useful to relate them to some of the more or less unspoken conventions about rules problems and forum rules discussions.
Posts in a forum rules discussion are not necessarily of the completeness and precision of a well written jury decision.
When judges are discussing a written 'rules problem', by convention, they do not rely on any fact not stated in the problem, for example if there is no mention of contact, then it is taken that contact did not occur. It is, however useful to make some assumptions for the sake of discussion, for example, in a diagram, that the wind is coming from the top of the page, or, as in this case, that the next mark is to windward. Some of these assumptions will be stated, some just made and then left open to challenge by others participating in the discussion
Just as in a live protest hearing, judges will consider all the evidence available including diagrams, textual descriptions, images, and some 'notorious facts' ('notorious' being used in its proper meaning of well-known, not 'infamous'), like boats will normally sail close hauled at about 45 to 40 degrees to the wind.
I think it's a pretty fair assumption in this case that this is a normal W/L course and the next mark is to windward.
Anyone that wants to challenge these sorts of assumptions is welcome to do so in the course of discussion.There's not enough information in the diagram to infer that Yellow tacked too close (or more specifically, Green had to alter course to avoid Yellow while tacking).
I absolutely agree, but bear in mind that Angelo was pitching up the first ball over the net in the first post in reply to the OP.What kind of boats are we talking about? If you're talking about a 80 foot cruising monohull, or a slow tacking catamaran, perhaps it's too close. Are we talking about a Laser or 470, both of which complete a tack in well less than a boat length? Then very likely it’s not too close.
OK, we can glean something from the diagram.- Boats are shown as same size, so we can expect similar performance.
- Boats are symmetrical spinnaker boats (FWIW), not cats or rack dinghies, but not Lasers or Optis either.
- Boats have tacking angles and close hauled wind angles shown by the grid lines.
When we deal in boat lengths, size doesn't make all that much difference, except perhaps when thinking about carrying way. It's not like the Yellow boat is a Farr 40 and the Green boat is a Dutch Barge.How fast were they going? Also greatly impacts the answer. If these are for example, Tech Dinghies, which both tack quickly and go very very slowly, it’s not anywhere near too close. If we're talking 505s, 49ers, or A Cats, then Yellow was not only too close,
Once again when we deal in boat lengths, until we get to very fast boats where psychomotor reaction time of fractions of a second may become relevant, speed is less important than existing conditions (which will affect speed). If, instead of light conditions as stated, this scenario was in 25 kts, and offshore waves, that would make a difference.but likely needs a trip behind the wood shed.
I don't get this proposition. If a boat in a highly competitive performance class nails a competitor port and starboard without breaking a rule, that's exactly how the game is meant to be played.If we're talking small modern keelboats, say a J80, it's likely still not too close. They do specify light air, so I suppose much is happening "slowly", but that makes which boats you're talking about even more important. You can tack a Laser in no wind in a boat length. Try that in a Lightning. Whereas an A Cat can be going 11-12 knots in "light air" of 6-8 knots, so nothing in particularly "slowly".
The PC has to ask sufficient questions to determine the facts. We don't have them here.See above: I think assumptions about 'normal' conditions and performance are quite all right, and are necessary.
If forum contributors think there are unclear variables, they can always ask the OP, or state some explicit assumptions.My inclination, absent any other information, would be to say it's on Green to show that Yellow tacked too close.
Shock, Horror, you're bringing back 'onus'.I personally don't see that in the diagram. Absent a good explanation, I wouldn't be able to find sufficient information to indicate Yellow tacked too close.
Well, what would need to be proved is that G, having a reasonable apprehension of collision (Case 50) changed course to avoid Y, before Y had reached a close hauled course.
I certainly agree that the diagram and the OP scenario doesn't show that.Why don't I see it? At point 2, Yellow appears to already be nearly head to wind, and Green is over 3 boat lengths away. Most boats I can think of would be able to complete the last half of a tack in less than 2 boat lengths. Unless they're very slow, or very slow to turn.
YupWe can't really infer point "2.5" because they didn't draw it. We don't have that information.
I think we're at perfect liberty to do some geometrical interpolation. That's not inference.
Anybody who thinks it's wrong can bring up the discusison.
So if I were on the PC, my questions would be around when Yellow crossed head to wind, and where Green was at that time.Yup again.A couple of boat lengths is plenty of time to avoid a collision on virtually any boat.
OKThus, I'd say the burden is on Green.
Then you would be advised not to use language of burden or onus. Onus was removed from the RRS in the 1995 rewrite. Not relying on 'onus' is sort of a big deal.Whether Green saw them or not, also irrelevant. That's a safety/seamanship question, not a rules question.
Hmmm, it might be better to say that it does not excuse or exonerate G if she does not keep clear.If Green has a large Asym, and isn't keeping track of their fleet, leading to crash maneuvers, that's not a rules issue. It's a seamanship issue.
Generally, we're all bringing a lot of preconceived assumptions here based on the boats we have most experience with.
As judges tend to do in real live protest hearings. Good judges are alert to this and pay attention to boat characteristics that are different from their personal experience.John Allan 26-Jul-17 12:54