Does Case 140 apply to Radio Sailing as Appendix E3.7 adds. the phrase ‘shall leave the course area immediately’ to 30.3 (U flag) and 30.4 (black flag) starts?
The facts here are similar to Case 140, Answer 1, Paragraph 2.
Boats are lined up below the start line, with sails luffing. Boat X is next to the right end pin, with boats to leeward. With 4 seconds to go, boat Y comes in from astern and hits the transom of X, pushing her over the line before the start signal. Boat X protests boat Y and returns to restart and sails the course and finishes. As she was identified as being in the forward triangle, Boat X was scored BFD/UFD.
Boat X promptly protested Boat Y. Boat Y took an E4.3 penalty (one tack and one gybe).
Under R 43 and Case 140, if the offending boat is penalised, or takes an appropriate penalty, boat X is to be exonerated. Boat X files her protest – not a request for Redress.
The PC finds that Boat X was forced to break a rule, by the actions of a boat breaking a rule of Part 2, in this example. R 12.
Under Case 140, in ‘big’ boats, a PC upon hearing the protest, may exonerate X and penalise Y for breach of R 12 – either by DSQ, or confirm she took an appropriate penalty at the time of the incident. With that finding, the PC may require the RC to rescore X in her finish position and rescore the rest of the fleet.
Q1. In Radio Sailing, may the PC use Case 140 and exonerate X and require the RC to rescore X and the rest of the fleet even though X did not comply with E3.7 and leave the course area?
Q2. As Boat X protested and Boat Y took an appropriate penalty under E4.3 at the time of the incident, may the RC assume that Boat X is exonerated without a PC finding, and score Boat X in her finish position and score the rest of the fleet accordingly?
Thanks for any insights
John
Q2 - No, the RC is required by rule 30.3 or 30.4 to score the boat UFD or BFD. The RC cannot decide whether Boat Y will be exonerated, only the PC can do that.
Sometimes sailing isn't fair but that's the game we all agreed to.
perhaps I did not explain it clearly enough - and while this is hypothetical, this type of incident does happen from time to time.
Boat Y sailing clear astern, contacted the transom of X and physically pushed her forward, allowing the bow of X to cross the start line. It is normal for IOMs to stack along the line, sails luffing, and then sheet in around at around the1 second mark. They accelerate so fast, they are up to hull speed almost immediately. There was nothing X could have done to prevent being pushed over by the 'keep clear' boat.
Here is a youtube video of an IOM World Championship regatta start.
https://youtu.be/UzWSEa42RF0?t=70
Does this cause you to reconsider your opinion?
The second question is about keeping events moving. Radio sailing regattas with larger fleets are run in heats, one race is comprised of several heats, with promotions and relegations - a ladder system. So if there is a protest, it may have to be heard before the next heat, and racing is delayed.
Thanks
John
My problem with your position is that R43.2 says that the exonerated boat shall not be penalised. Making her leave the course and thereby denying her the ability to sail the course is a penalty.
John B.
The boat makes two distinct breaches at two distinct times:
John
RRS 30.3 and 30.4 do not contain any requirement for boats that are U/BFD to leave the course or to behave in any way other than as if they are racing ( Case 1 ).
In fleet racing requirements for U/BFD boats to leave the course need to be stated in SI, and usually involve U/BFD boats being 'notified' by their numbers being displayed at the first mark.
U or Black Flag starts are usually used with competitive fleets which have demonstrated closely judged starts. It would not usually be expected that a boat that is U/BFD would know with any certainty that she was over early.
RRS E3.7 significantly changes the game by requiring U/BFD boats, if informed by the race committee, to immediately leave the course area. The race committee has a discretion whether or not it wants the boat to leave the racing area, hence whether or not to inform the boat.
Well that's an outcome that arises from a special rule that the radio sailing community has inserted into RRS Appendix E.
I think there are pretty clearly two separate incidents.
These are matters for the radio sailing community.
I don't think it's a good idea to try to switch off a WS Case by a specific discipline Call, particularly when the problem is caused by a specific discipline special rule.
(2) my sole experience of Radio sailing is limited to having been a spectator on 2 occasions.
(3) I think that the RC should "inform" the boats (read competitors) with a blackboard displayed in the "Control Area". It can be a simple arrangement perhaps accompanied by a hail.
(4) Boats racing under the unaltered RRS rule 30 (4) are equally "hard-done" by when the terms of of the questions in Case 140 apply. Then again, a very senior judge once asked a class of aspiring IJ's; "Where in the rules does it say the rules are meant to be fair?"
(5) However, RRS 30(4) can be made to work "fairer", indeed Sailing Australia once put forward a proposal to achieve just that, but ithe submission didn't get very far.
Several observations:
RC actions:
1. RRS E3.7 does not make it obligatory for the RC to inform boats that they are UFD or BFD.
2. RRS 3.7 does not require the RC to inform the boat immediately, or promptly. There is no time limit.
A sensible RC policy may be to delay hailing numbers until it is clear that a boat has returned to start again, and had protested another boat for an incident on the start line. In which case the RC has the option of not hailing that boat's sail number.
Rule changes:
1. RRS 3.7 is a rule that can be changed by national prescription, NoR or SIs.
There are several options, including:
- delete E 3.7 entirely
- reword the first sentence of RRS 3.7 to read 'The Race Committee may inform a boat that she has broken rule 30.3 or 30.4.' This makes clearer that the hail is optional.
- Delete ' the boat shall immediately leave the course area.' I believe that these words are redundant. I would argue that having been informed that she has broken a rule, and has been disqualified without a hearing, a boat breaks RRS 2 by continuing in the race UNLESS she takes action such as protesting another boat, AND returns to start correctly. A call may be necessary to achieve consistency in PC decisions.
2. Change RRS 6.6 (2) by adding after physical damage: ' breaking RRS 30.3 or 30.4'. This would allow the PC to give redress.
The Study Version does not seem to include a Submission.
I bow to your very much superior knowledge of ''e" sailing matters. Accordingly, I agree with your observations. I particularly like your first recommendation - to delete RRS E3.7,
As it stands, the only chance an OCS boat has to return and start in a 'U' or 'B' flag start, is if she hasn't been informed she is OCS by the RC - because once she is "informed" by the RC, rule E3.7 requires that she leaves the course area. [And once she leaves the course she can hardly return to the starting line to start]
There is no obligation under E3.7 for the RC to "inform" and action under RRS 29.1 is not required because 29.1 doesn't apply under E3.5..
We all talk about the ideal of simple rules and here is a perfect example of the complication we so dislike.
Cheers Gordon, Hope you're keeping fit and well. Phil.
You wrote: action under RRS 29.1 is not required because 29.1 doesn't apply under E3.5..
To be clear: RRS E5 changes 29.1, replacing the X flag by a hail. E5 states that the does not apply when RRS 30.3 and 30.4 apply, so there is no requirement to hail a boat that is UFD or BFD. Sorry to be pedantic.
Personally I would prefer to replace the whole of E5 by ' The Race Committee may inform a boat that she has broken rule 30.3 or 30.4.' This is useful for competitors
In which case:
- the boat has been informed that she has broken a rule, and will be scored UFD or BFD without a hearing.
- a boat so informed a boat is required to retire promptly (Case 65)
- however, under Case 140, she is entitled to protest the other boat, and return to start correctly. In which case she may be exonerated for her breach of 30.3 or 30.4 and scored in her finishing position.
RRS E3.5 replaces the whole RRS 29.1 as you say, and accordingly, in the case of 30.3 and 30.4 starts, the E3.5 replacement doesn't apply, hence no 29.1 Signals and no E3.5 hail .
I think the rule makers wern't considering Radio Sailing when composing their questions and answers in Case 140, because E3.7 isn't listed in the menu of rules considered, and RRS E3.7 particularly affects 30.4 in the case of a General Recall, because the RC is required to inform the boats OCS - thus activating rule E3.7.
I suppose once a boat has left the course area she might think; " there's nothing to say I can't return, so back I go". But I think that's wild west stuff, Oh, come t think of it, I live in the wild west of AUS. Hey, I seem to recall that you;ve officiated in Radio Sailing here in WA so you know what it's like. Phil.
That would bring back the X flag for an individual recall under RRS 29.1
AFAICS, the point of RRS E3.5 and E3.6 is to get rid of flag signals.