An RC cancels racing for the last day of a regatta. The Signal Boat was on the water when they made the call. The signal ashore for boats to launch was never given, so no boats were ever in the water. The SI's state that the TL for protest, R4R's and Scoring Inq's was 1 hour after the Signal Boat docks.
We had a quick conversation between the judges regarding the different scenarios ..
- In the scenario that the Signal Boat left dock .. and returned, but no boats ever entered the racing area, is the TL 1 hour after the Signal Boat docks?
- In the scenario that the Signal Boat never leaves the dock (and thus has no "docking time"), is the appropriate TL 1 hour after the PRO announces/posts AP over A? If so, based on what in the rules?
I'd say the majority of the weekend races, that I personally compete in with my J105, use the dock-time of the RC/Signal-boat as the start of the PTL clock.
Standard practice here in Annapolis in
non-dinghymajority of the regattas.To be effective, you need to understand the sailing time from the course to shore so you can choose a time after last boat finish effectively. My practice is to take the estimated time to sail to shore in light/medium conditions, add 30 minutes when using an easy digital filing or 45 if it's paper filing. So, if we think it takes 15 minutes to get from the sailing area to the dock and we have online filings, the PTL is 45 minutes after the last boat finishes. Using this method, we've extended the protest time limit once in 5 years across LOTS of events. In that case, the wind went totally flat and not everyone got towed home.
We typically use RC docking time as the starting point for the PTL with the caveat that the RC should not dock until most of the boats are near the docking area to prevent the issue of no wind keeping boats from getting to the docking area in time.
That's exactly what i was thinking. Might make a nice submission to WSRC to add that to the Example SI docs as an option.
In my OP i tied all the TL's together. R4R on the decision is what we were thinking.
1) I agree with your #1 scenario since it agrees with the SI.
2) As to the RC never leaving the dock scenario - I agree that posting the Docking Time as the time when the AP over A was posted and the PTL was 1 hour after that is appropriate because posting AP over A indicates that the RC is done for the day as far as racing goes and therefore could be considered docked. I suppose if you wanted to be pedantic about it - the RC could cast off the lines and then refasten them, but don't see the need for that.
The ilca worlds sometimes have just as decided by the jury.
In the first question yes from the docking.
In the second case no you cannot add words, if the trigger is not apply over a you cannot substitute it.
For r4r it is the 2 hours after the boat knew of the circumstances.
For protests, may be the day before extendable by the rc to meet what happened.
Mike .. that logic is hard to argue with. No docktime ... no trigger of the SI and reverts to the RRS default.
That said, I like John P's additional verbiage to cover it.
Why would that even matter?
Somebody trying to lodge a protest for a race that never happened?
Bored much?
Don't forget RRS 63.7(b)(1) .. the right of a boat to ask to reopen is 24 hrs after decision or the PTL on the last day of the event if their decision was on the previous day.
Can you show us the exact wording of the SI?
And when since 1995 does a race committee get to 'cancel' a race?
Yes ... AP/A of course .. but it appears there wasn't any confusion created by my shorthand.
And no, I've never seen a SI that keys PTL to docking time.
When this SI is in place, the Signal Boat stays out and follows the last boats into the harbour.
Don't forget RRS 63.7(b)(1) .. the right of a boat to ask to reopen is 24 hrs after decision or the PTL on the last day of the event if their decision was on the previous day.
In the extremely rare case that it c\potentially have an application, I don't believe there is a PTL as there is no race that it pertains to thus also not extending the reopening filing time. In addition, it wouldn't make any sense to extend the filing limit as it is already 24 hours after a decision is delivered which in 99.999% of the cases, will be later than the imaginary PTL on the following day
We are talking about the last day of a regatta that is AP/A from shore. So the PTL on the last day in this circumstance represents something likely much less than 24hrs (not more) after the decision was read the previous day (which could have been into the evening).
The RRS specifically speak of this circumstance and the truncation of the 24hrs the last day .. so the question is to when as the shortening is to the PTL the last day.
RRS 60.3 permits the SI to 'state a different protest time limit [from the two 2 hour limits specified in RRS 60.3]'.
If the RC Vessel never leaves the dock on the last day, it never 'docks' on the last day, therefore the protest time limit stated in the SI does not exist, so the SI have not actually stated a protest time limit, and we can fall back on RRS 60.3 which provides two possibilities:
The protest time limit is
(1) for protests about an incident observed in the racing area, two hours after the last boat in the race finishes, or
(2) for other protests, two hours after the relevant information is available to the protestor.
A request for reopening is not a protest about an incident observed in the racing area, therefore the protest time limit is 'two hours after the relevant information is available .... ', and the relevant information would have become available when the protest committee informed the parties of its decision at the end of the hearing, which, as Ang has said will probably be the night before.
So the protest time limit applicable for the request for reopening will be 23:00, 00:00, 01:00, or whatever.
This will be a problem for a party contemplating requesting a reopening. She will come to the venue on the last day expecting to race and expecting the time limit for her request for reopening to be some time after racing finishes on the last day. Then, suddenly the relevant time limit will click back to the middle of the previous night.
RRS 60.3 provides that the protest committee shall extend the protest time limit if there is good reason to do so.
The protest committee should extend the protest time limit: two hours after the race committee notifies that racing has been abandoned would be reasonable, but that's an extension given by the protest committee, not a time limit arrived at by formula under the rules.
Erm. You might want to read 17.1 in the template SI
It's interesting that the posters who said the docking time is common practice all appear to be US based. Also that they tend to follow the fleet ashore so are effectively the last boat in. In my experience in the UK (dinghy racing), there is a fleet of safety boats who will follow the fleet in. The Race Committee - perhaps following the times before technology could get results ashore instantly - came ashore ASAP to get results to the scorers etc. but rarely would a UK Race Committee vessel serve much function in rescuing a dinghy sailor in trouble. (Occasionally it might be used to place rescued sailors on if there is a big wipeout).
If you use the RC Docks, and the RC goes out for a look at the weather, all you've done is delayed the time anyone can go home?
Sure enough. thanks! (emphasis added).
The RRS specifically speak of this circumstance and the truncation of the 24hrs the last day .. so the question is to when as the shortening is to the PTL the last day"
I think various people here are talking about different scenarios.
Your thought makes little sense IMHO, as the time limit for the req to reopen had been established the day before (by notifying the afflicted party) and it would be totally out of line shortening the 24 hour limit based on what happens to racing the day after - that just makes no sense. If that were to be the PC's decision, the party asking for re-opening that case has a very good reason to appeal that decision and would most likely succeed.
That's what the RRS say. Please carefully read RRS 63.7(b). It's so they can button-up the regatta, have awards and get people on their way home.
The last sentence of 63.7(b) states ...(emphasis added)
PS: Note it is last "scheduled day of racing" ... not "completed day of racing". It doesn't matter if there is actually racing that day.
In your original scenario you set up a situation that was a poorly written set of SI, which put the situation in limbo since it did not address what would happen to the request for reopening of a case from the day before if there was no race on the last day and thus not PTL on the last day. If the PC was to arbitrarily shorten the time limit for the request to reopen to anything shorten than 24 hours form the requesting party having been informed of a protest decision - WITHOUT any grounds written in the SI's, it is clearly an arbitrary decision, which is left open to an appeal.
Exactly. That is the entire purpose of the topic and thread.
I knew it was a hole in the SI ... that's why I put the thread under the RC & Race Management Forum. I knew that the ultimate solution was to shine a light on the SI, which is under the control of the RC.
This process is one of the main purposes of the forums here on RRoS.org ... to let folk work through situations and issues and learn from some of the best in our sport. It's something I strive for as a forum moderator. Kick the ball into play for opportunities for learning during practice .. so we are more prepared on game-day.
I intentionally set up the scenario with VERY COMMON SI's (at least here in the USA it seems), that tie the TL's to the RC dock-time and do not include a "no more racing" signal ashore language. That way people can work through the fallback conditions in the rules (like Grant, Mike and John A did).
I imagine the next time many of us are asked to review SI's for a regatta in the future, we'll now look for language that covers this scenario and will maybe suggest an SI change ala Appx LG 17.1.
I know I will.
Note if the RC signals OTW (OP Scenario #1) .. then the clock starts at her dock time. If she never leaves the dock (OP Scenario #2), the clock starts at the signal.
Assuming the other 2 fleets started .. the RC would finish those other 2 fleets, follow them back and post her dock time. So 60+docktime. That's assuming there was only 1 circle out there. If there was more than one circle, then the SI should have the qualifier that each circle's RC will post their dock time.
Are you seeing something I'm not?
PS .. doesn't look like Signal A alone is still in the US Rx for 2025
But I think flying AP/A ± class flag in the wording given would still mean dock time applies.
An additional scenario that hasn't been considered - morning and afternoon race. Morning goes ahead and sailors return for lunch (AP/H or just per schedule). RC comes to dock and then while ashore decide not to go out after lunch AP/A flown. Protest time will be from AP/A. With the original wording being used it would be dock time.
For those of us who use from last finisher of race, we sometimes use last finisher by fleet. I presume dock time doesn't allow that? Am I the only one who wants to get home for my dinner?