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The Definition of Finish, (c) continues to sail the course
There are multiple races which have multipart courses. In these, a boat "finishes" Segment-1 of a multipart race and is sailing in the second (or third) segment. They are still "racing" in the subsequent Segment. Trophies are awarded for Segments in addition to Overall.
Thanks Beau, so in a two segment course, a boat crosses the finish line for Segment 1 and finishes Segment 1. She continues to to sail the course for Segment 2. But, the definition states "However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (c) continues to sail the course." Is this the Catch-22 Ang referred to?
I think there is some confusion about which Course one is talking about. In a segmented race, "The Course" is from the Start to the Finish for Segment 1. Then "The Course" is from the Start to the Finish of Segment 2 or per-SIs from the Finish of segment 1 to the Finish of segment 2.
In the case where there are multiple loops and someone is crossing the Finish during one or more of those loops, one has not Sailed The Course and then Finished. If the RC wishes to Shorten Course in either case, they are free to do so in accordance with the Rules.
EG: The course requires four laps around a loop and each lap includes the Finish Line. Until the final lap, or the RC shortens the course, a Yacht has not Finished the race despite transiting the Finish Line.
Jerry .. the construction of your OP question sets-up a Catch-22.
Based upon def: finish, as soon as you determine the condition of your question is satisfied .. "and then continues to sail the course?" ... that by definition makes the boat's finish-line crossing NOT a finish
Finish A boat finishes when, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
[...] (c)continues to sail the course.
We also have Case 148 (generated from a thread on RRoS.org) which discusses "when" a boat is considered to have continued to sail the course.
I was thinking about this just the other day. I think the case would be if you crossed the finish line the wrong way, then had to unwind, which would involve crossing back through (the "correct" direction--but not having sailed the course properly) that would not be a finish. You would then have to round the end and finish again properly.
Jerry ... at the most basic level, this language is in there to allow courses to be setup so that the starting pin is used as a rounding mark for multiple loops.
We did this all the time in the Magothy River north of Annapolis. After starting all the fleets, the RC would often flop to the other side of the starting-pin so it can be rounded to port or finished using the same approach. Often we would setup a "hopeful" # of loops ... but shorten by removing a last lap.
Thanks Jerry - that's what I get for not opening the book before answering. While I agree with the premise of Case 148, but with the new rules will have to wait till they finally get an updated Case book done. Someday.
A multi lap course where a boat has to finish the first lap to start the second lap. I used to sail this type of course all the time when I was growing up. Except we didn't have gate marks.
Something of a mess this definition and case 148. I don't see it remaining unchanged for very long! For the definition, consider a boat being unclear whether they have sailed the correct number of laps. They complete the race, cross the line, but being uncertain as to whether or not they have completed the race, sail another lap. The case requires the PC to make a dubious value judgement, including, to my mind, a judgement by the PC about what the crew were thinking rather than actual verifiable facts. Its not immediately apparent to me why its desirable for the boat that stops for a few seconds to discuss whether they have completed the race to be counted as having finished, and thus DSQ, and the boat that keeps moving while having the same discussion to be counted as not finished and able to complete the course and be placed.
Q: Can anyone share a scenario where a boat finishes, and then continues to sail the course?
After shortening course at a rounding mark. On several occasions, we have shortened course and finished a boat which then continues to race by sailing the course. (A later finisher either understands the S-flag signal or asks if they finished.) But the boats which finished and continued sailing the course are still racing and must abide by the rules, even though they have cleared away from the finish line.
The concept of 'what the crew believes' must dictate when a boat is racing. The RC will establish and record a finish position or time. Doing so does not necessarily mean the boat is finished and therefore is no longer racing.
Maybe I'm missing something, which happens all the time ;-)
I think there is a distinct difference between the act of Finishing, at the end of Sailing The Course, vs crossing the finish line at all other times. Finishing, is predicated on having Sailed the Course. Put another way:A boat can only qualify to Finish as an integral part of Sailing the Course. This is the way our language works and it happens all the time. This is the reason many Race Committees explicitly make the Finish Line an Obstacle unless one is Finishing. The Race Committee is explicitly recognizing the difference between crossing the finish line and Finishing. The converse is also the case, where the Race Committee requires all boats to pass through the finish line as a part of Sailing The Course for any number of reasons: counting noses, photo op for the press, making it easy to shorten course at that point, etc...
With regard to Case 148 and "continues to sail the course", there are numerous examples of situations where competitors cross the finish line without Finishing. EG: match racing where boats drive each other all over the course for tactical reasons, significant current advantages by sailing through the finish line, etc... Those are ignored as the boats involved have not achieved the status or situation of a pending Finish because they have not Sailed The Course.
Case 148 requires the Jury to determine the intent of the competitors, which I personally believe is an extremely difficult thing to do fairly, as intent seems to change once the consequences of the various optional intents become clear to competitors. I personally believe it would be more helpful to leave out any determination of intent, and stick to the fact that a Boat can't Finish until it is completing the act of Sailing the Course. I believe this will successfully deal with the example in Case 148 and not encumber the Jury with discovering intent.
Hey Jerry. What I meant was that if you cross the line the wrong way, you have to "unwind the string" by crossing the finish line in what is the correct direction (but would not count as a finish). Then you need to sail back around the end of the line and cross from the correct side again.
but isn't a finish line at the end of the last leg of a course?
On a multi-lap course, why is a boat not considered finished if, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finish line from the course side before completing all required laps?
The finish line is defined in the sailing instructions as a line between two finish marks. What rule or definition says that the finish line is at the end of the last leg of a course"?
This exception was introduced to enable the running of multi-lap races. Without it, such formats wouldn't be possible.
However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (c) continues to sail the course.
This (c) has been introduced in RRS of 2013 or 2017 (I don’t remember exactly when) for multi laps races when the finishing line is between the windward and the leeward marks and boat could cross the line while sailing the course. For instance, the first boats finish (blue flag on a mast of a race committee boat) while the lasts are sailing to the finishing line and then are crossing the line but have one or more laps to do in order to comply with the number of laps to sail the course as written in the SIs.
What if boats were advised that, after finishing, they must take their R.C. boats out of the water at a dedicated area on the "finish" side of the finishing line (i.e. to avoid interfering with boats on the course side). If a boat finished, say 10th, but then sailed outside the shore-side finish mark and crossed the extension of the line (not back through the finishing line), then, remembering to take the boat out of the water on the other side at the designated area, sailed back across through the finish line (i.e. crossing a second time) recording 20th, should she be scored 10th or 20th?
If the sailor cleared the finish line and marks after finishing, then he was no longer racing. The only way to get back to racing is through a start sequence. The sailor would need to be careful about sailing among boats still racing or risk breaking RRS 23.1. So, if he cleared the line he was done racing, score him the first time he crossed the finish line. If he didn't clear the line and marks, he was still racing, score the second time he crossed the finish line.
History – The clause, (c) continues to sail the course, was added to the definition of Finish in the 2013-2016 RRS. Submission 251-11 contains the following:
“Many race committees set a course that requires boats to sail two or more laps, with the added requirement that they cross the finishing line at the end of each lap. This course is frequently used for informal local races. Technically speaking, under the current definition, the boats “finish” at the end of the first lap, but obviously that is not what is intended when such a course is used. The same issue can arise when other types of courses are used. As Q&A E7 (Q&A 2009-026) shows, there are situations when a boat inadvertently crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark well before she has finished sailing the course. The addition of “continues to sail the course” to the second sentence proposed in Proposal 3 makes it clear that, if such a boat continues to sail the course after crossing the line, she has not finished.”
Thank you Jerry We (a few French judges) have been in trouble about that with RC !! I’m quite sure most of race officials (even judges) have lost or don’t know the story of the « c) » in the definition !! Have a nice day in the State. Do you think Donald would change that as it comes from some institution with Federation ? Joke !!!
Anyone participate in track in high school or college? The 880 is just over two times around a 400 track, when did you finish?
Any Indy car or NASCAR fans out there? The competitors pass through the start/finish many times, but when do they finish? The last lap. Speed skating, cross country skiing and I expect many more sports round a course multiple times but only finish at the end of the last lap.
I just wonder why in sailboat racing we need to be different? Oh, look at me, I'm rambling again. Catch you later on down the trail.
Jerry, Yellow is on the second leg when she touches P, does she break a rule?
No. P does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course on which she is sailing.
Green is on the third leg and passing though the "counting gate" or "safety gate" or just the gate. Does she finish and continue to sail the course?
It is not possible to 'finish and continue to sail the course. If a boat crosses the finishing line from the course side and continues to sail the course she has not finished.
John A "It is not possible to 'finish and continue to sail the course. If a boat crosses the finishing line from the course side and continues to sail the course she has not finished."
Yes, I agree John. I had in my mind when she crossed the finish line from the course side she finished. At that point there is not enough information to make that determination. The three conditions must first be tested to get to finished.
A boat cannot finish and continue to sail the course. That is part c of the definition of finish.
However, she may cross the finish line and continue to sail the course. Example: a boat completes the full two laps of a windward-leeward; start/finish in the middle, and crosses the finish line, but continues upwind towards the windward mark. She would not be considered finished, and the RC should not record her as such (or should cross out her record)
Also, she may finish, without having sailed the course. Example: a boat completes one lap (of a prescribed two) of the same windward-leeward; start/finish in the middle and crosses the finish line, and stops racing. She should be recorded as having finished, however she should retire or be protested for not having sailed the course.
right! Though I suppose it's entirely possible the RC might not know of sure if the course had been sailed. This has indeed happened to me in cases where a boat skipped a mark, and I've seen it happen when a newb racer went around once and the RC was unaware, as the finish was simultaneous with the leaders.
In a post i saw about shortened courses i believe the concept is wrong.
When we have multiple laps and you cross the finish line on an earlier lap, you then continue to sail the course and have not finished.
When there is a shorten course, you have finished, there is no further course to sail as the race is finished. The old complete course is cancelled effectively and replaced with the new shorter course.
Its a bit of a circular argument though, in that the definition of sailing the course terminates when she finishes, and the definition of finish activates when she has sailed the course. I suppose what I don't like is the concept that you can finish without having sailed the (complete) course. That's what I really don't like about Case 148. A boat should not be regarded as finished if she hasn't sailed the course, and thus denied the opportunity to correct her error. I accept that its often impossible for the RC on the finishing line to know whether a boat has in fact completed the course and is "really" finishing, but I don't see that the distinction drawn in Case 148 between a boat that keeps moving and one that stops is either useful or just.
Jim, you comment about usefulness and justice. The original thread that inspired Case 148, focused on a different aspects than the resulting case did.
The way I was looking at it was what the rules transitions mean to the boat itself and the boats around them.
A boat that is no longer racing is subject to RRS 23.1 and not as exposed to penalty for breaking rules of Part 2/31 If the boat sailed the course ... and crosses a generous finish-line in the middle of the line, a boat is no longer racing the moment her stern clears the line. At that moment, she is subject to 23.1 and less exposed to penalty. If she is ROW clear ahead of other boats still crossing the line, though she is ROW, she has an obligation to try to stay out of the way and make the line clear. A boat that has not finished, does not have that same obligation.
My original point was that rules should not turn on/off retroactively based upon the future actions of a boat. That what rules apply at any moment should be clear to the boat and boats around her AT THAT VERY MOMENT.
That is where the fairness and justice of Case 138 comes. If a boat's actions are contiguously consistent with "sailing the course", then the boats around her have a chance to interpret those actions as her still being in a state of "racing" and can interact with her appropriately.
On the other hand the boat douses her spin and doesn't round an end ... and appears to others that she's not continuing to sail the course, then likewise boats around her can judge her state as not racing.
It's not "useful or just" for a boat to change her mind and "continue" to sail the course .. when there was no continuity to "continue" ... and in doing so ... have her racing-state in the meantime be retroactively changed from not racing to racing.
A boat shouldn't be able to enter in and out of a state of racing more than once in a single race.
Let assume that at position 6 the boat touches mark S/F as she passes by it. Does she break RRS 31? I don't think so as mark S/F does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course on which she is sailing. She is sailing on leg 2 between marks 1 and 2.
If she sails between the marks at position 6 and heads back to the marina, has she finished? I don't think so following the logic of RRS 31.
Case 148 places an onus on the race committee to track the time from when she sailed between the marks just before position 6 until the skipper gives himself a dope slap realizing he missed a mark and heads back up the course to round. The case states that 30 seconds is too long, does that mean at or before 29 seconds she is good to head back up to round mark 2? And the RC must figure out why she stopped according to the case, how is that accomplished? If RC asks a boat why, they are treading very close to RRS 41. It is my practice on RC when a boat does this is to instruct everyone aboard not to pay attention to the boat, certainly not tell them that they still have legs to sail. In addition, must everyone wait for a boat to sail 2 extra legs? I include the following SI to handle that scenario:
13.x In the interest of starting another race or completing the day’s racing in a timely fashion, the Race Committee may assign a finish position to any boat(s) still racing, provided their position(s) can be determined in a reasonable manner. Such boat(s) will be scored as finished. This changes RRS 28.1, 35, A3, and A4.
Finally, I want to point out that (c) continues to sail the course was deleted from the draft version of the 2020-2024 RRS dated January 2019. I thought good riddance. I was not happy to see it back in the final version published in July 2020.
Jerry re: Case 148 is flawed ...And the RC must figure out why she stopped according to the case, how is that accomplished?
I do not think that's how this would shake out ITRW.
The RC will have 2 finish times recorded (each time they crossed). I think most RC's will see that and score the 2nd one. If the RC or another boat saw the boat "at rest" the RC might score them NSC or a boat might protest for DNSC.
If the RC NSC's the boat, the boat will likely do a scoreInq and then likely an R4R. In the end, it would end up in the PC's lap to ask those Q's I think.
FWIW, in the original thread, I had suggested something slightly stricter .. and that was that at the moment a boat cleared the line and the influence of the marks, she had to be sailing in a manner consistent with continuation.
It's a subtle and slightly tighter test than 148 described.
If she continued to sail the course at 6, no she did not break RRS 31. She was actually sailing the leg between #1 and #2 therefore the pin was not a mark that bounds a leg she is on.
Had she touched mark S/F, did not continue to sail the course, and was scored NSC, she also does not break RRS 31.
Beau re: What am I missing ... A boat can only qualify to Finish as an integral part of Sailing the Course.
Finish A boat finishes when, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a)takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b)corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or
(c)continues to sail the course.
After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely. The sailing instructions may change the direction in which boats are required to cross the finishing line to finish.
As you can see in bold above Beau, sailing the course is NOT a requirement to finish.
Also, a boat does not have to start either .. so an OCS boat can finish.
It is very important a boat can finish without sailing the course. If you see it comply with the definition you finish it. As a race officer I do not always see the boats on all the marks, so I would never be sure when a boat has sailing the course. If a boat has not sailed the course, other boats can protest them, ot if there is evidence avaliable to the rc such as trackers they can score a boat as nsc. Please let us finish boats that crossover line.
> It is very important a boat can finish without sailing the course. I've just got to play devil's advocate and ask "Why?"
As far as I can see the RCs only compulsory duty as a boat crosses a finishing line is to record place or/and time. Even the conventional sound signal is just a courtesy isn't it?
I completely agree that the RC cannot know whether a boat has sailed the course, so all they can do is record the data. If a boat crosses the finish line multiple times they need to record it and sort out what happened afterwards. If one goes back to dictionary english a completed race would consist of starting, sailing the complete course correctly, and finishing. To my mind the rule makers have ended up down a rabbit hole through fixing perceived problems with the definition, but ending up with a logical nonsense.
>A boat shouldn't be able to enter in and out of a state of racing more than once in a single race. Again, devil's advocate, why not. I can recall an occasion when in a particularly tedious light air race we decided on the second lap that enough was enough and we were going to retire. I imagine we would have kept well clear of other boats as we sailed in, which involved passing the finish line. As we got there it was evident that the RC had shortened, and heck, we've sailed the course, we may as well cross the line and get a finish, and that's what we did. No-one else knew that we had decided to retire, we hadn't broken any rules, we'd sailed the course... If some ingenious low life conceives of a way to manipulate stopping and restarting racing for advantage then RRS 2 is waiting for them. I take your point about 23.1, but I'm not sure I see a problem in practice.
Also on my dislike of Case 148, the rules, after all, allow us to stop making progress and go for a swim in the middle of the race, although one is still technically racing whilst doing so. There is no rule that requires a boat to be continually sailing to the next mark, so fabricating such a requirement in the case doesn't sit well with me.
Jim re: ">A boat shouldn't be able to enter in and out of a state of racing more than once in a single race. Again, devil's advocate, why not."
This is why ...
Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.
As soon as a boat is no longer racing, she can't start racing again without a new prep-signal.
You're right of course. She's racing until she's not.
However what is a "state of racing"? There's no rule requiring her to sail a proper course, so she can go off sightseeing and come back to the race later. The rules specifically permit her to anchor or the crew go swimming, so there's no rule that she must always be sailing to the next mark. She can, indeed must, cease sailing to the next mark in order to give assistance to persons/boat in danger. In all those circumstances she continues to conform to the definition of racing.
And then, "continuing to sail the course". "Sail the course" is defined by the string rule. If she stops, takes her sails down, whatever surely she may still be complying with the string rule. If she kedges up and puts the kettle on for a cup of tea in the middle of the race she is surely, by the definitions, still racing and still sailing the course. And is there an argument that a boat is never *not* sailing the course? Whatever peculiar evolutions she makes, marks missed, whatever, she can always, or perhaps almost always, go back and correct them, so it can only be known whether a boat sailed the course after she finishes, which means we are back to a circular argument.
Your point about 23.1 and "That what rules apply at any moment should be clear to the boat and boats around her AT THAT VERY MOMENT."
Its certainly desirable that what rules apply should be clear at any moment, but is it achievable? We have to accept that at any time there may be craft on the course to which we must apply IRPCAS. Distinguishing between a boat in a different event sailing on a different course that overlaps ours (RRS) and a boat not racing (IRCPAS) may be difficult. Distinguishing between a boat that has retired mid race and is merely sailing home and one continuing to race may also be difficult. This uncertainty is almost routine.
Ang: "If she continued to sail the course at 6, no she did not break RRS 31. She was actually sailing the leg between #1 and #2 therefore the pin was not a mark that bounds a leg she is on."
I agree.
"Had she touched mark S/F, did not continue to sail the course, and was scored NSC, she also does not break RRS 31."
I agree again, she does not break RRS 31. But, did she finish?
Jim re: "There's no rule requiring her to sail a proper course, so she can go off sightseeing and come back to the race later. The rules specifically permit her to anchor or the crew go swimming, so there's no rule that she must always be sailing to the next mark. She can, indeed must, cease sailing to the next mark in order to give assistance to persons/boat in danger. In all those circumstances she continues to conform to the definition of racing. "
That's funny. I actually draw out on paper exactly what you just described when I attempt to teach people how "proper course" is misunderstood :-)
Sure a boat only retires quietly in their mind, doesn't break any rules of propulsion and so forth and then before they cross the finish-line they quietly change their mind ... who's to know? That's not what we are talking about, right?
We are discussing what happens when a boat crosses the finish-line and at some point after realizes they missed a mark and returns to the course to correct it (or crosses and starts the 2nd leg of the course).
Once a boat crosses the FL, it sets in motion the "tests" built into the def:finish. If she does not satisfy one of those tests, she has finished. So we are focused on the actions of a boat in the moments just after she has crossed the FL, cleared the line, and no longer in the influence of the marks, which overlays the tests from def:racing.
We have to accept that at any time there may be craft on the course to which we must apply IRPCAS. Distinguishing between a boat in a different event sailing on a different course that overlaps ours (RRS) and a boat not racing (IRCPAS) may be difficult. Distinguishing between a boat that has retired mid race and is merely sailing home and one continuing to race may also be difficult. This uncertainty is almost routine.
Out of the situations above, boats in other overlapping racing circles or boats in our circle who retired or are sailing home all fall within the preamble of Part 2.
"The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing."
Jerry re: "I agree again, she does not break RRS 31. But, did she finish?"
If she did not satisfy any of def: finish (a), (b) or (c), and crossed the finish-line from the course-side after her starting-signal, then she finished.
Thanks Ang, I don't see how she does not break RRS 31 because the mark does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course she is sailing and at the same time finish. If it was indeed a finish line, which I don't believe it is, she would have broken RRS 31 when she touched the mark. I believe the proper score for the boat in question is DNF, not NSC.
From submission 139-18 "Clause (c) in the current definition Finish is deleted. Many readers have never understood that clause. It was introduced in 2013 to permit the use of multiple-lap courses that require boats to cross the finishing line as they begin to sail each new lap. Without clause (c), under current rules, a boat crossing the finishing line at the end of the first lap has ‘finished’ the race. Under Proposal 4, that boat does not ‘finish’ because she has not yet completely sailed the course."
I understand the desire to have multi-lap races that require boats to pass through a counting or security gate each lap. The location of the start/gate/finish is mid-course between the windward and leeward marks. The gate is a starting line at the beginning of the race, a security/counting gate for intermediate laps and a finish line at the end of the race. And I understand multi-segment race where times are recorded as boats pass through timing gates. I think Sailing Instructions can be used in these course configurations rather than having a clause to finish that a boat finishes unless she continues to sail the course.
The finish line marks the end of a racecourse, not the end of a lap for every sport I can think of except sailboat racing (Automobile Racing (NASCAR, Indy, Le Mans, Formula One, Dirt Track), Speed Skating, Roller Derby, Track and Field, Short and Long Track Cycle, Cross Country Skiing, Horse Racing, Sprint Boat Racing).
Jerry I acknowledge the conundrum you are exploring.
Ok ... so we are in a hearing.
FF's
Boat A crossed the FL from the course-side after her starting signal. Her finish was recorded my by the RC
Before she cleared the FL, Boat A touched the pin of the FL and no other boats were in a position to see Boat A touch the pin.
The RC protested Boat A by filing a protest with the RO and notified Boat A, both before the PTL.
After crossing the FL, Boat B A dropped her sails, turned on her engine and motored to her slip.
The RC Mark boat recorded that Boat A did not round the offset mark. Boat A concurred that she did not round the offset mark.
The RC scored Boat A NSC.
Conclusions
Boat A did not sail the course.
When Boat A touched the finish pin, Boat A was actually sailing the leg between Mark 1 and 1A. Therefore the finish-pin did not bound the leg Boat A was sailing. Boat A did not break RRS 31.
Yellow on the first beat, Leg 1, touches Mark G2, does she break RRS 31? No, because Mark G2 does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course she is sailing.
Blue sailing on Leg 3 loses track of where she is on the course and passes between RC and Mark F. Does she finish? Keeping in mind Course 1 is defined as Start, W, G1/G2, W, G2, Finish. No, because Leg 3 has no finish line.
Green, sailing on Leg 4, touches Mark G1, Does she break RRS 31? No, because Mark G1 does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course she is sailing.
Doesn't the same logic that is applied to Yellow and Green apply to Blue?
I guess my point is that (c) continues to sail the course is confusing and that Sailing Instructions could handle events that require passing through a gate multiple times of that have course segments.
Blue sailing on Leg 3 loses track of where she is on the course and passes between RC and Mark F. Does she finish? Keeping in mind Course 1 is defined as Start, W, G1/G2, W, G2, Finish. No, because Leg 3 has no finish line.
Does she finish? YES ... IF none of def: finish (a)/(b)/(c) apply. You didn't mention what Blue does after crossing. THAT determines if she finished or not .. and remains racing or not.
Also, how is the finish-line described in the SI's? If the FL is simply described as a line bounded by the blue flag on the RC boat and mark-F .. then it is what it is at all times. Now, I guess an RC could be clever and not hoist the blue flag on the RC until late in the race. In that case, the FL doesn't exist unless both ends exist.
Ang A boat that is no longer racing is subject to RRS 23.1 and not as exposed to penalty for breaking rules of Part 2/31
I think RRS 31 is a bit of a non-issue.
I disagree about Part 2. She is more exposed.
Her breach is ‘interfering’ not merely failing to keep clear, and once she breaks RRS 23.1, her penalty is DSQ with no opportunity to take a Turns Penalty.
I understand that this is qualified by reasonably possible.
Let assume that at position 6 the boat touches mark S/F as she passes by it. Does she break RRS 31?
So, in the diagram, S/F is displaced to the right so that it is touching the stern of the boat marked 6.
If the protest committee decides that she did not continue to sail the course, then she finished when her bow crossed the finishing line, if she touches the finishing mark, she has not cleared the finishing mark and so is still racing, and she touches the finishing mark after finishing (RRS 31 last line), so yes, she breaks RRS 31.
If the protest committee decides that she continued to sail the course, then, no, go back to the discussion about your big diagram, S/F is out of play and she breaks no rule if she touches it.
Jerry, If RC asks a boat why, they are treading very close to RRS 41.
Arguably, it's no business of the race committee to be asking racers anything.
I disagree that this is a breach of RRS 41: the race committee is a disinterested source: if the boat does not solicit any information from the race committee RRS 41(d) applies.
Depending on the level of the event, I wouldn’t be too worried about it: the boat is going to be a lap behind the field: I doubt that sailing and finishing the race will make any other boat’s score significantly worse.
Trying to pull together some thoughts from this thread.
RRS 28.2 and Case 148
The need for Case 148 and the problems we have been discussing all arise from the limitation in RRS 28 that a boat may not correct an error in sailing the course after finishing.
This requirement was deleted from RRS 28 in 2005 and put back in in 2013. The reason given for restoring it in Submission 151-11 was (emphasis added)
In the 2001-2004 rules, the sentence in rule 28.1 about correcting errors read as follows, “She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has not already finished.” That sentence was changed in 2005 by deleting the phrase “provided she has not already finished.”
The proposal restores the phrase that was deleted in 2005. Since then there has frequently been debate, even among rules experts, as to when a boat is not longer permitted to correct an error she made under rule 28.1 while sailing the course. Clearly, there ought to be a specified time after which a boat may no longer correct such an error. That time was clearly stated in rule 28.1 prior to 2005. Therefore, to remove the confusion about when an error may be corrected, this proposal reinstates the phrase that was used in rule 28.1 prior to 2005.
I suppose that the bolded part is something of a truism, but it does not necessarily follow that the specified time should be the time the boat in question finishes. The selection of that time is, to a degree arbitrary. It would be possible and may be better to specify some other time, such as ‘after all other boats in the race have finished’, or, obviously somewhat less desirably, you could just let the race time limit expire.
Those options were not chosen and so we need Case 148.
I would have preferred Case 148 to use the criterion of ‘actions that are inconsistentwith continuing to sail the course’, such as lowering sails, engaging motor, or sailing away from the course area.
I agree that it’s regrettable that Case 148 set up a test ‘because her crew thought they had finished’.
However, I think Case 148 should be applied only when:
· a boat, immediately before crossing the finishing line has not sailed the course
· the boat stops after crossing the finishing line for 30 seconds or more.
In particular Case 148 has no application where a boat has sailed the course and finished even if she thinks she has not finished and sails back onto the course.
Here it seems that the idea of ‘no more course left to sail’ is helpful
As Jim has pointed out the distinction between a boat that stops (RYA Hove To) to re-read the SI and a boat that, somewhat more cleverly, having read Case 148, continues to make way slowly, is arbitrary. I agree that it is undesirable.
I find a case that requires a protest committee to ascertain what a boat thought (‘because her crew thought they had finished’) really troubling
It might be wise to apply Case 148 very narrowly: it refers to ‘because her crew thought they had finished’. If her crew only thought ‘they might have finished’, or thought ‘they may not have sailed the course correctly’, then we could say that that would fall outside Case 148.
Problems with boats continuing to sail around the course
Several posters have talked about problems when boats fail to observe a shorten course signal and continue sailing around the course.
It is said that those boats, somehow are continuing to sail the course. There are also concerns that a boat that has finished and is no longer racing may not be bound by the RRS.
That’s not correct. A boat that sails the course correctly up until they have left the last mark preceding the finishing line and then crosses the finishing line from the course side has finished, and once she clears the finishing line and marks is no longer racing. When flag S is displayed at a rounding mark, the line between the staff on which flag S is displayed and the mark becomes the finishing line.
While there may be a problem for the boat, getting cold, wet and tired sailing an extra lap because they couldn’t count or didn’t pay attention to the race signals, I don’t think it’s a problem for race management or a protest committee. The boat has sailed the course and finished, and is no longer racing although bound by the Part 2 Rules in accordance with the preamble to Part 2. If she mistakenly thinks she is still racing and interferes with a boat that actually is racing, she breaks RRS 23.1, and it’s all on her.
Obligations of the race committee
It is suggested that Case 148 places an onus on the race committee to track the time from when she sailed between the marks just before position 6 until the skipper gives himself a dope slap realizing he missed a mark and heads back up the course to round.
I disagree. Case 148 concerns a protest by a boat.
If the race committee sees that a boat has not sailed the course, they must score the boat NSC. If the race committee does not see that, it has no obligation to do so, and it has no obligation to take any particular observation measures to see whether boats sail the course or not.
It is also observed that the race committee may be unable to know whether a boat has sailed the course, but if they are paying attention to their job, they should usually have a pretty good idea.
I think the headnote to Case 148 gives a pretty good hint at what the default should be:
When a boat crosses the finishing line from the course side twice, her second crossing constitutes her finish if, at all times between her first and second crossing, her actions are consistent with continuing to sail the course
Thanks John. That helps a lot with understanding how we got where we are. I don't suppose we've seen the last of changes in this area. I still think the writers have got into something of a logical mess.
Perhaps both sail the course and finish need to be looked at again together. Logically to be counted as a finisher a boat should need to start, complete the course, including any changes made by the RC, and finish.
Perhaps we should have a dialogue, perhaps in another thread, on how we would wish to see this aspect of the rules improved. It does tend to get messy if a thread is partially about interpreting the rules as they currently exist, and partially about criticising the rule set and improving it in the future.
In the case where there are multiple loops and someone is crossing the Finish during one or more of those loops, one has not Sailed The Course and then Finished. If the RC wishes to Shorten Course in either case, they are free to do so in accordance with the Rules.
EG: The course requires four laps around a loop and each lap includes the Finish Line. Until the final lap, or the RC shortens the course, a Yacht has not Finished the race despite transiting the Finish Line.
Based upon def: finish, as soon as you determine the condition of your question is satisfied .. "and then continues to sail the course?" ... that by definition makes the boat's finish-line crossing NOT a finish
We also have Case 148 (generated from a thread on RRoS.org) which discusses "when" a boat is considered to have continued to sail the course.
We did this all the time in the Magothy River north of Annapolis. After starting all the fleets, the RC would often flop to the other side of the starting-pin so it can be rounded to port or finished using the same approach. Often we would setup a "hopeful" # of loops ... but shorten by removing a last lap.
You techhnically finish on each lap but continue to sail the course.
I think you meant to ask ..:
Course : Start - 1 - 2s/2p - Finish - 2 Laos
For the definition, consider a boat being unclear whether they have sailed the correct number of laps. They complete the race, cross the line, but being uncertain as to whether or not they have completed the race, sail another lap.
The case requires the PC to make a dubious value judgement, including, to my mind, a judgement by the PC about what the crew were thinking rather than actual verifiable facts. Its not immediately apparent to me why its desirable for the boat that stops for a few seconds to discuss whether they have completed the race to be counted as having finished, and thus DSQ, and the boat that keeps moving while having the same discussion to be counted as not finished and able to complete the course and be placed.
I think there is a distinct difference between the act of Finishing, at the end of Sailing The Course, vs crossing the finish line at all other times. Finishing, is predicated on having Sailed the Course. Put another way: A boat can only qualify to Finish as an integral part of Sailing the Course. This is the way our language works and it happens all the time. This is the reason many Race Committees explicitly make the Finish Line an Obstacle unless one is Finishing. The Race Committee is explicitly recognizing the difference between crossing the finish line and Finishing. The converse is also the case, where the Race Committee requires all boats to pass through the finish line as a part of Sailing The Course for any number of reasons: counting noses, photo op for the press, making it easy to shorten course at that point, etc...
With regard to Case 148 and "continues to sail the course", there are numerous examples of situations where competitors cross the finish line without Finishing. EG: match racing where boats drive each other all over the course for tactical reasons, significant current advantages by sailing through the finish line, etc... Those are ignored as the boats involved have not achieved the status or situation of a pending Finish because they have not Sailed The Course.
Case 148 requires the Jury to determine the intent of the competitors, which I personally believe is an extremely difficult thing to do fairly, as intent seems to change once the consequences of the various optional intents become clear to competitors. I personally believe it would be more helpful to leave out any determination of intent, and stick to the fact that a Boat can't Finish until it is completing the act of Sailing the Course. I believe this will successfully deal with the example in Case 148 and not encumber the Jury with discovering intent.
What am I missing here??
On a multi-lap course, why is a boat not considered finished if, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finish line from the course side before completing all required laps?
The finish line is defined in the sailing instructions as a line between two finish marks. What rule or definition says that the finish line is at the end of the last leg of a course"?
This exception was introduced to enable the running of multi-lap races. Without it, such formats wouldn't be possible.
C'mon Mark, give us a break.
A leg is the portion of a course between 2 consecutive marks n'est-ce pas?
So in the gold cup type course you've described, the last leg of the course is 2s/2p - Finish.
If the sailor cleared the finish line and marks after finishing, then he was no longer racing. The only way to get back to racing is through a start sequence. The sailor would need to be careful about sailing among boats still racing or risk breaking RRS 23.1. So, if he cleared the line he was done racing, score him the first time he crossed the finish line. If he didn't clear the line and marks, he was still racing, score the second time he crossed the finish line.
The course diagram and course legend. See the example below for Course 1. Yellow is on the second leg when she touches P, does she break a rule?
Green is on the third leg and passing though the "counting gate" or "safety gate" or just the gate. Does she finish and continue to sail the course?
History – The clause, (c) continues to sail the course, was added to the definition of Finish in the 2013-2016 RRS. Submission 251-11 contains the following:
“Many race committees set a course that requires boats to sail two or more laps, with the added requirement that they cross the finishing line at the end of each lap. This course is frequently used for informal local races. Technically speaking, under the current
definition, the boats “finish” at the end of the first lap, but obviously that is not what is intended when such a course is used. The same issue can arise when other types of courses are used. As Q&A E7 (Q&A 2009-026) shows, there are situations when a boat
inadvertently crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark well before she has finished sailing the course. The addition of “continues to sail the course” to the second sentence proposed in Proposal 3 makes it clear that, if such a boat continues to sail the course after crossing the line, she has not finished.”
Any Indy car or NASCAR fans out there? The competitors pass through the start/finish many times, but when do they finish? The last lap. Speed skating, cross country skiing and I expect many more sports round a course multiple times but only finish at the end of the last lap.
I just wonder why in sailboat racing we need to be different? Oh, look at me, I'm rambling again. Catch you later on down the trail.
No. P does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course on which she is sailing.
It is not possible to 'finish and continue to sail the course. If a boat crosses the finishing line from the course side and continues to sail the course she has not finished.
Yes, I agree John. I had in my mind when she crossed the finish line from the course side she finished. At that point there is not enough information to make that determination. The three conditions must first be tested to get to finished.
Thanks
Though I suppose it's entirely possible the RC might not know of sure if the course had been sailed. This has indeed happened to me in cases where a boat skipped a mark, and I've seen it happen when a newb racer went around once and the RC was unaware, as the finish was simultaneous with the leaders.
When we have multiple laps and you cross the finish line on an earlier lap, you then continue to sail the course and have not finished.
When there is a shorten course, you have finished, there is no further course to sail as the race is finished. The old complete course is cancelled effectively and replaced with the new shorter course.
Its a bit of a circular argument though, in that the definition of sailing the course terminates when she finishes, and the definition of finish activates when she has sailed the course.
I suppose what I don't like is the concept that you can finish without having sailed the (complete) course. That's what I really don't like about Case 148. A boat should not be regarded as finished if she hasn't sailed the course, and thus denied the opportunity to correct her error. I accept that its often impossible for the RC on the finishing line to know whether a boat has in fact completed the course and is "really" finishing, but I don't see that the distinction drawn in Case 148 between a boat that keeps moving and one that stops is either useful or just.
The way I was looking at it was what the rules transitions mean to the boat itself and the boats around them.
A boat that is no longer racing is subject to RRS 23.1 and not as exposed to penalty for breaking rules of Part 2/31 If the boat sailed the course ... and crosses a generous finish-line in the middle of the line, a boat is no longer racing the moment her stern clears the line. At that moment, she is subject to 23.1 and less exposed to penalty. If she is ROW clear ahead of other boats still crossing the line, though she is ROW, she has an obligation to try to stay out of the way and make the line clear. A boat that has not finished, does not have that same obligation.
My original point was that rules should not turn on/off retroactively based upon the future actions of a boat. That what rules apply at any moment should be clear to the boat and boats around her AT THAT VERY MOMENT.
That is where the fairness and justice of Case 138 comes. If a boat's actions are contiguously consistent with "sailing the course", then the boats around her have a chance to interpret those actions as her still being in a state of "racing" and can interact with her appropriately.
On the other hand the boat douses her spin and doesn't round an end ... and appears to others that she's not continuing to sail the course, then likewise boats around her can judge her state as not racing.
It's not "useful or just" for a boat to change her mind and "continue" to sail the course .. when there was no continuity to "continue" ... and in doing so ... have her racing-state in the meantime be retroactively changed from not racing to racing.
A boat shouldn't be able to enter in and out of a state of racing more than once in a single race.
Let assume that at position 6 the boat touches mark S/F as she passes by it. Does she break RRS 31? I don't think so as mark S/F does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course on which she is sailing. She is sailing on leg 2 between marks 1 and 2.
If she sails between the marks at position 6 and heads back to the marina, has she finished? I don't think so following the logic of RRS 31.
Case 148 places an onus on the race committee to track the time from when she sailed between the marks just before position 6 until the skipper gives himself a dope slap realizing he missed a mark and heads back up the course to round. The case states that 30 seconds is too long, does that mean at or before 29 seconds she is good to head back up to round mark 2? And the RC must figure out why she stopped according to the case, how is that accomplished? If RC asks a boat why, they are treading very close to RRS 41. It is my practice on RC when a boat does this is to instruct everyone aboard not to pay attention to the boat, certainly not tell them that they still have legs to sail. In addition, must everyone wait for a boat to sail 2 extra legs? I include the following SI to handle that scenario:
13.x In the interest of starting another race or completing the day’s racing in a timely fashion, the Race Committee may assign a finish position to any boat(s) still racing, provided their position(s) can be determined in a reasonable manner. Such boat(s) will be scored as finished. This changes RRS 28.1, 35, A3, and A4.
Finally, I want to point out that (c) continues to sail the course was deleted from the draft version of the 2020-2024 RRS dated January 2019. I thought good riddance. I was not happy to see it back in the final version published in July 2020.
I do not think that's how this would shake out ITRW.
The RC will have 2 finish times recorded (each time they crossed). I think most RC's will see that and score the 2nd one. If the RC or another boat saw the boat "at rest" the RC might score them NSC or a boat might protest for DNSC.
If the RC NSC's the boat, the boat will likely do a scoreInq and then likely an R4R. In the end, it would end up in the PC's lap to ask those Q's I think.
FWIW, in the original thread, I had suggested something slightly stricter .. and that was that at the moment a boat cleared the line and the influence of the marks, she had to be sailing in a manner consistent with continuation.
It's a subtle and slightly tighter test than 148 described.
But Ang, you skipped over the logic question - do you believe that if the boat touched mark s/f at position 6 that she would break RRS 31?
Had she touched mark S/F, did not continue to sail the course, and was scored NSC, she also does not break RRS 31.
See Case 126
This same logic does not apply to RRS 31
As you can see in bold above Beau, sailing the course is NOT a requirement to finish.
Also, a boat does not have to start either .. so an OCS boat can finish.
If you see it comply with the definition you finish it.
As a race officer I do not always see the boats on all the marks, so I would never be sure when a boat has sailing the course.
If a boat has not sailed the course, other boats can protest them, ot if there is evidence avaliable to the rc such as trackers they can score a boat as nsc.
Please let us finish boats that crossover line.
I've just got to play devil's advocate and ask "Why?"
As far as I can see the RCs only compulsory duty as a boat crosses a finishing line is to record place or/and time. Even the conventional sound signal is just a courtesy isn't it?
I completely agree that the RC cannot know whether a boat has sailed the course, so all they can do is record the data. If a boat crosses the finish line multiple times they need to record it and sort out what happened afterwards.
If one goes back to dictionary english a completed race would consist of starting, sailing the complete course correctly, and finishing. To my mind the rule makers have ended up down a rabbit hole through fixing perceived problems with the definition, but ending up with a logical nonsense.
>A boat shouldn't be able to enter in and out of a state of racing more than once in a single race.
Again, devil's advocate, why not. I can recall an occasion when in a particularly tedious light air race we decided on the second lap that enough was enough and we were going to retire. I imagine we would have kept well clear of other boats as we sailed in, which involved passing the finish line. As we got there it was evident that the RC had shortened, and heck, we've sailed the course, we may as well cross the line and get a finish, and that's what we did. No-one else knew that we had decided to retire, we hadn't broken any rules, we'd sailed the course...
If some ingenious low life conceives of a way to manipulate stopping and restarting racing for advantage then RRS 2 is waiting for them. I take your point about 23.1, but I'm not sure I see a problem in practice.
Also on my dislike of Case 148, the rules, after all, allow us to stop making progress and go for a swim in the middle of the race, although one is still technically racing whilst doing so. There is no rule that requires a boat to be continually sailing to the next mark, so fabricating such a requirement in the case doesn't sit well with me.
Again, devil's advocate, why not."
This is why ...
As soon as a boat is no longer racing, she can't start racing again without a new prep-signal.
However what is a "state of racing"? There's no rule requiring her to sail a proper course, so she can go off sightseeing and come back to the race later. The rules specifically permit her to anchor or the crew go swimming, so there's no rule that she must always be sailing to the next mark. She can, indeed must, cease sailing to the next mark in order to give assistance to persons/boat in danger. In all those circumstances she continues to conform to the definition of racing.
And then, "continuing to sail the course". "Sail the course" is defined by the string rule. If she stops, takes her sails down, whatever surely she may still be complying with the string rule. If she kedges up and puts the kettle on for a cup of tea in the middle of the race she is surely, by the definitions, still racing and still sailing the course. And is there an argument that a boat is never *not* sailing the course? Whatever peculiar evolutions she makes, marks missed, whatever, she can always, or perhaps almost always, go back and correct them, so it can only be known whether a boat sailed the course after she finishes, which means we are back to a circular argument.
Your point about 23.1 and "That what rules apply at any moment should be clear to the boat and boats around her AT THAT VERY MOMENT."
Its certainly desirable that what rules apply should be clear at any moment, but is it achievable? We have to accept that at any time there may be craft on the course to which we must apply IRPCAS. Distinguishing between a boat in a different event sailing on a different course that overlaps ours (RRS) and a boat not racing (IRCPAS) may be difficult. Distinguishing between a boat that has retired mid race and is merely sailing home and one continuing to race may also be difficult. This uncertainty is almost routine.
"If she continued to sail the course at 6, no she did not break RRS 31. She was actually sailing the leg between #1 and #2 therefore the pin was not a mark that bounds a leg she is on."
I agree.
"Had she touched mark S/F, did not continue to sail the course, and was scored NSC, she also does not break RRS 31."
I agree again, she does not break RRS 31. But, did she finish?
That's funny. I actually draw out on paper exactly what you just described when I attempt to teach people how "proper course" is misunderstood :-)
Sure a boat only retires quietly in their mind, doesn't break any rules of propulsion and so forth and then before they cross the finish-line they quietly change their mind ... who's to know? That's not what we are talking about, right?
We are discussing what happens when a boat crosses the finish-line and at some point after realizes they missed a mark and returns to the course to correct it (or crosses and starts the 2nd leg of the course).
Once a boat crosses the FL, it sets in motion the "tests" built into the def:finish. If she does not satisfy one of those tests, she has finished. So we are focused on the actions of a boat in the moments just after she has crossed the FL, cleared the line, and no longer in the influence of the marks, which overlays the tests from def:racing.
Out of the situations above, boats in other overlapping racing circles or boats in our circle who retired or are sailing home all fall within the preamble of Part 2.
"The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing."
If she did not satisfy any of def: finish (a), (b) or (c), and crossed the finish-line from the course-side after her starting-signal, then she finished.
From submission 139-18 "Clause (c) in the current definition Finish is deleted. Many readers have never understood that clause. It
was introduced in 2013 to permit the use of multiple-lap courses that require boats to cross the finishing line as they begin to sail each new lap. Without clause (c), under current rules, a boat crossing the finishing line at the end of the first lap has ‘finished’ the race. Under Proposal 4, that boat does not ‘finish’ because she has not yet completely sailed the course."
I understand the desire to have multi-lap races that require boats to pass through a counting or security gate each lap. The location of the start/gate/finish is mid-course between the windward and leeward marks. The gate is a starting line at the beginning of the race, a security/counting gate for intermediate laps and a finish line at the end of the race. And I understand multi-segment race where times are recorded as boats pass through timing gates. I think Sailing Instructions can be used in these course configurations rather than having a clause to finish that a boat finishes unless she continues to sail the course.
The finish line marks the end of a racecourse, not the end of a lap for every sport I can think of except sailboat racing (Automobile Racing (NASCAR, Indy, Le Mans, Formula One, Dirt Track), Speed Skating, Roller Derby, Track and Field, Short and Long Track Cycle, Cross Country Skiing, Horse Racing, Sprint Boat Racing).
Ok ... so we are in a hearing.
FF's
myby the RCBA dropped her sails, turned on her engine and motored to her slip.Conclusions
Protest dismissed. No change in score.
Conclusions
2. When Boat A touched the finish pin, Boat A was actually sailing the leg between Mark 1 and 1A.
I do not believe there is a finish line on the leg on which she was sailing, between Mark 1 and 1A.
Please consider the following:
The course diagram above is in the Sailing Instructions.
Yellow on the first beat, Leg 1, touches Mark G2, does she break RRS 31? No, because Mark G2 does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course she is sailing.
Blue sailing on Leg 3 loses track of where she is on the course and passes between RC and Mark F. Does she finish? Keeping in mind Course 1 is defined as Start, W, G1/G2, W, G2, Finish. No, because Leg 3 has no finish line.
Green, sailing on Leg 4, touches Mark G1, Does she break RRS 31? No, because Mark G1 does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course she is sailing.
Doesn't the same logic that is applied to Yellow and Green apply to Blue?
I guess my point is that (c) continues to sail the course is confusing and that Sailing Instructions could handle events that require passing through a gate multiple times of that have course segments.
Does she finish? YES ... IF none of def: finish (a)/(b)/(c) apply. You didn't mention what Blue does after crossing. THAT determines if she finished or not .. and remains racing or not.
Also, how is the finish-line described in the SI's? If the FL is simply described as a line bounded by the blue flag on the RC boat and mark-F .. then it is what it is at all times. Now, I guess an RC could be clever and not hoist the blue flag on the RC until late in the race. In that case, the FL doesn't exist unless both ends exist.
If the protest committee decides that she did not continue to sail the course, then she finished when her bow crossed the finishing line, if she touches the finishing mark, she has not cleared the finishing mark and so is still racing, and she touches the finishing mark after finishing (RRS 31 last line), so yes, she breaks RRS 31.
Perhaps both sail the course and finish need to be looked at again together. Logically to be counted as a finisher a boat should need to start, complete the course, including any changes made by the RC, and finish.
Perhaps we should have a dialogue, perhaps in another thread, on how we would wish to see this aspect of the rules improved. It does tend to get messy if a thread is partially about interpreting the rules as they currently exist, and partially about criticising the rule set and improving it in the future.
Thanks for finding and posting. - Ang