Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Mark Room at Windward Mark.

Phil Clinton
Nationality: Australia
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Overlap Query.png 46.6 KB


This was sent to me by a friend. My answer to the 3 questions posed are Yes to all. Answer looks straight forward but am I missing something? 
Created: 19-Aug-16 00:30

Comments

Ann Stokes
Nationality: United States of America
0
If I tack from port to starboard just ahead of someone within the zone, and they have to head up to avoid me, but not above close hauled, am I in the wrong or just taking proper advantage?
Created: 19-Aug-16 00:49
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
1
My answers to the three questions would be Yes, Yes, maybe - but under R 13 and not 18.2(d). 

As drawn it looks like the mark is to be rounded to stbd, so the boats are not ‘fetching’ the mark, and they both need to tack to port to round the mark.

Q1. R 18 applies at marks, unless one of the situations listed in R18.1 applies. So for Q1, Yes R 18 applies until one of the boats tacks in the zone.

Q2 For the diagram as drawn. Boat 1 clear ahead at the zone is entitled to mark room and boat 2 risks breaking R18.2(b) and (c) if she subsequently establishes an inside overlap and prevents Boat 1 from sailing close to the mark. Boat 1 is entitled to sail close to the mark, and that could include luffing up to head to wind, and boat 2 must keep clear. So to be safe, Boat 2 should bear off and stay clear astern or get to leeward of boat 1. 

Q3 Boat 1 may only tack to round the mark if she has mark room and is overlapped and to windward and will fetch the mark after tacking (definition of Mark Room) else without breaking R 13

John

Created: 19-Aug-16 02:47
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Angelo Guarino
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Phil, why don’t you put some RRS references and reasoning behind your 3 yes’s.  Good practice and would be helpful for your friend too. 
Created: 19-Aug-16 02:48
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Angelo Guarino
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Ann, to answer your question you should break the tack up into 3 segments and think about the rights and responsibilities of both boats at each section and how they change as different rules and definitions come in and out of play. 

  1. close hauled on port up to HTW 
  2. Passing HTW 
  3. HTW falling down to close hauled to round the mark 

Also look closely at mark-room and what it says about room-to-tack. 

Post what you come up with and folk here will check it for you.  

Created: 19-Aug-16 12:51
Paul Zupan
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It's interesting that you're getting so little response on this question.   This situation was very common in match racing in the last quad and those rules applied to fleet racing as well.  But the rules this quad are a bit different for both.  So to answer your questions:

1.  The definition of overlap answers the first question. Boats can in fact be defined as overlapped going upwind, so your first answer is correct.
2.  Because Boat 1 entered the zone clear ahead, RRS 18.2(b) requires that Boat 2  give Boat 1 mark-room.  Boat 2 proceeds to create a inside overlap at their peril. If they fail to give Boat 1 room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, they failed to give mark-room.  So your second answer is also correct.  
3. The definition of mark-room allows boat 1 to round the mark as necessary to sail her proper course.  So assuming the next mark is downwind, Boat 1's proper course is to tack at the mark (and perhaps gybe).  The only tricky part of this question is whether or not the boat with mark-room is 1. sailing her proper course, and; 2 within mark-room.  If both are true, she may tack and the obligated boat must give her room to round the mark (and Boat 1 is exonerated under RRS 21 for breaking RRS 10 or 13).  And you must read RRS 18.2(d) to understand why it doesn't apply.  It only applies once mark-room has been given.  You will find loads of discussion concerning when mark-room has been given, but in your diagram, Boat 1 is still clearly within the mark-room as defined in the rules.  So your third answer is not correct.
Created: 19-Aug-17 17:39
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Angelo Guarino
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Paul, I’m seeing #3 differently. 

As soon as Boat 1 passed HTW, 18.2(d) shuts off 18.2(b-c).  Mark room doesn’t include room to tack as Boat 1 wasn’t overlapped to windward. After Boat 1 passed HTW, 18.2(a) can’t apply as they are on opposite tacks.

So, 18.2(a-c) don’t apply and thus no remaining basis for mark-room. 

What am I missing?
Created: 19-Aug-17 18:46
Phil Clinton
Nationality: Australia
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Thank you Paul.
Created: 19-Aug-17 18:47
Paul Zupan
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Actually, Angelo is correct.  Boat 1 is entitled to mark-room but because there is no overlap to windward, is not entitled to room tack if doing so would break RRS 13.  See the last sentence of the definition of Mark-Room.  But the only way Boat 2 prevents Boat 1 from getting around the mark is if Boat 1 is below the mark and Boat 2 such that when she tacks, she is directly in front of Boat 2.
Created: 19-Aug-17 19:01
Tim Hohmann
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So regarding Question 3:

  1. close hauled on starboard up to HTW: Boat 1 is ROW and entitled to mark room (18.2b). If Boat 1 can luff up and shoot the mark without touching it or passing HTW, she's entitled to do that and Boat 2 must give mark room.
  2. Passing HTW (from starboard to port): Boat 1 is tacking and must keep clear of Boat 2. If Boat 1 can't keep clear she is not entitled to tack. Her ROW ends when passing head to wind, definition of Mark Room does not include room to tack unless overlapped inside and to windward (Boat 1 is either clear ahead or overlapped to leeward). Entitlement to mark room also ends when Boat 1 passes HTW (18.2d turns 18.2b off) 
  3. HTW falling down to close hauled (on port) to round the mark: Boat 1 is still tacking until she reaches a close-hauled course. She may cross, duck or tack back onto starboard but must keep clear of Boat 2 while doing so. If she tacks back onto starboard and becomes overlapped to leeward of Boat 2 she becomes ROW when her tack from port to stbd is completed and I believe her entitlement to mark room is restored by 18.2a

Created: 19-Aug-19 17:56
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Angelo Guarino
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Tim, I think that's a good job spelling out 1,2 & 3.  However ... 

If she tacks back onto starboard and becomes overlapped to leeward of Boat 2 she becomes ROW when her tack from port to stbd is completed and I believe her entitlement to mark room is restored by 18.2a

Your last sentence of 3 is not correct.  Once mark-room rights are turned-off by 18.2(d), that specific room-right doesn't get "restored".  New mark-room rights can occur, but each new occurrence is never a resurrection of an old one.

Therefore, in your final #3 sentence, if Boat 1 tacks back and becomes overlapped to leeward of Boat 2, then Boat 2 will have mark-room, not Boat 1.  

Here is how it plays out ... 

  1. Boat 1 passes HTW
    1. 18.2(d) turns off 18.2(b,c)  .. and 18.2(a) doesn't apply [18.1 (a/b) turns-off 18] as they are on opposite tacks [and/or if Boat 1 is fetching the mark after tacking].
    2. 13 applies to Boat 1 (10,11 and 12 do not apply)
      1. 15 does not apply to Boat 2 as she gained ROW by Boat 1's actions
      2. 16.1 does apply to Boat 2 so she has to be careful with her course changes (if any)
    3. They are both still in the zone, so 18 is still in effect, but since 18.2(a,b,c) don't apply, [but] neither boat has mark room
  2. Boat 1 changes her mind mid-tack and falls back to close-hauled STB tack to leeward of Boat 2
    1. Boat 1 is ROW - RRS 11
    2. Boat 2 is inside overlapped with the mark, Boat 2 is entitled to mark-room by 18.2(a)
    3. Boat 2 is to windward and overlapped with Boat 1, therefore her mark-room includes room-to-tack
      1. Boat 1 needs to provide Boat 2 room for her stern to swing if/when Boat 2 tacks

Note: Corrections after posting shown based upon input from Tim and John A.
Created: 19-Aug-19 20:00
Tim Hohmann
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Once mark-room rights are turned-off by 18.2(d), that specific room-right doesn't get "restored".  New mark-room rights can occur, but each new occurrence is never a resurrection of an old one.

I think we're in agreement here, just semantics. What I meant was that Boat 1 had an entitlement to mark room, then they didn't and then they did again.


They are both still in the zone, so 18 is still in effect, but since 18.2(a,b,c) don't apply, neither boat has mark room

If they're on opposite tacks in the zone, doesn't 18.1a turn 18 off?

Boat 1 changes her mind mid-tack and falls back to close-hauled STB tack to leeward of Boat 2
  1. Boat 1 is ROW - RRS 11
  2. Boat 2 is inside overlapped with the mark, Boat 2 is entitled to mark-room by 18.2(a)
  3. Boat 2 is to windward and overlapped with Boat 1, therefore her mark-room includes room-to-tack
    1. Boat 1 needs to provide Boat 2 room for her stern to swing

I'm not sure how you get Boat 2 to an inside overlap and to windward (but I agree that if Boat 2 does get to the inside she gets mark room as soon as they're on the same tack). I think it looks like the below:

  • At 1, Blue (Boat 1) reaches the zone clear ahead. ROW and entitled to mark room
  • Being below the layline, at 2 Blue tacks. Loses ROW (13) and entitlement to mark room (18.2d, passing head to wind in the zone). 
    • While the boats are on opposite tacks (Blue is on port tack as soon as she passes HTW, even though her tack is not complete), 18 does not apply (18.1a)
  • At 3 Blue curtails her tack before completing it and passes HTW again, back onto starboard tack. While Blue is above close-hauled on starboard Yellow has ROW (13), but they are now overlapped in the zone so 18.2a is on (18.2b no longer applies as 18 was turned off the first time that Blue passed HTW) and Blue is entitled to mark room.
  • At 4 Blue completes her tack, now has ROW (11) and entitlement to mark room (18.2a) 




markroom.png 34.8 KB
Created: 19-Aug-19 21:21
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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Tim, Ahhh .. based on the original OP's drawing and the blue-line, I assumed we were talking about a STB rounding. :-)

So, yea .. if you move the boat's laylines up so that a port-rounding is somewhat possible without 2 tacks .. then I can see what you were getting at and what you wrote was correct (and if you reread what I wrote with a STB rounding in mind, you'll see what I was getting at).

If they're on opposite tacks in the zone, doesn't 18.1a turn 18 off?

Yes, you are correct, my mistake.18 is off at that moment due to 18.1(a) .. and 18.1(b) for that matter.

Then 18 is back on when they are on the same tack in the zone and with a port-rounding scenario (your drawing), yes, Boat 1 would regain mark-room under 18.2(a).

Sorry for the confusion. 
Created: 19-Aug-19 22:01
Tim Hohmann
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Oh, yeah - I guess they do things differently down under and it's very different if it's a starboard rounding.

In that case Boat 1 has ROW as long as she's clear ahead or overlapped to leeward, and is owed mark room by Boat 2 (18.2b) unless she passes head to wind in the zone. Boat 1 can luff up to HTW but cannot tack unless she can keep clear of Boat 2 while doing so. If Boat 2 establishes a windward overlap inside the zone I don't think Boat 1 has to give her room to tack (room for her stern to swing) since Boat 2 would not be entitled to mark room.

And I don't think anything obligates Boat 2 to tack to round the mark - I think she can continue to sail Boat 1 up the course a ways, can she not?
Created: 19-Aug-20 00:06
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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1
If it's a port rounding as Tim diagrammed, then Y has been on starboard since entering the zone, B has passed head to wind onto starboard tack in the zone and is fetching the mark, and rule 18.3 applies and rule 18.2 does not.

B is not entitled to mark-room and if I was Y @4, I'd be sailing above close hauled to keep clear and yelling bloody blue murder.


Created: 19-Aug-20 13:28
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Tim Hohmann
said Created: Today 00:06

Oh, yeah - I guess they do things differently down under and it's very different if it's a starboard rounding.

I dunno what's so different.  Sometimes windward marks are port rounding, sometimes they're starboard rounding.  I think the pecked line in Phil's original diagram made it pretty clear that it was a starboard rounding.

In that case Boat 1 has ROW as long as she's clear ahead or overlapped to leeward, and is owed mark room by Boat 2 (18.2b) unless she passes head to wind in the zone. Boat 1 can luff up to HTW but cannot tack unless she can keep clear of Boat 2 while doing so. If Boat 2 establishes a windward overlap inside the zone I don't think Boat 1 has to give her room to tack (room for her stern to swing) since Boat 2 would not be entitled to mark room.

Yes.

But I'm uncomfortable with the assertion that Boat 1 'cannot tack...' and I'm even less comfortable with the earlier assertion that 'If Boat 1 can't keep clear she is not entitled to tack'

Nothing in the rules says that a boat cannot tack, or is, or is not entitled to tack.  The rules just say what boats rights and entitlements are if she does tack.

And I don't think anything obligates Boat 2 to tack to round the mark - I think she can continue to sail Boat 1 up the course a ways, can she not?

Boat 1's proper course it to sail close to the mark, she is entitled to mark-room to sail to the mark, that is as close to the mark as she chooses (without touching it), and then to round it, again, as close to it as she chooses.

If Boat 2 gets the late inside overlap, Boat 1 can, and usually would scrape Boat 2 off on the mark, or force her outside it.

The pin-out situation in Case 15 occurred because the outside mark-room entitled boat stayed wide of the mark instead of sailing to it.

Created: 19-Aug-20 13:46
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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John A. " and rule 18.3 applies and rule 18.2 does not. "

Great catch John .. thanks for that correction in the port-rounding scenario. - Ang

Created: 19-Aug-20 14:12
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Angelo Guarino
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Tim re: " ..  Oh, yeah - I guess they do things differently down under "

It's only the sink drains that naturally spin the opposite direction  .. not boat roundings :-)
Created: 19-Aug-20 18:57
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Angelo,

What else goes clockwise down the plughole in the Southern Hemisphere?
Created: 19-Aug-20 21:51
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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John, that’s the version before the better angels of my nature won the battle :-)
Created: 19-Aug-20 22:33
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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Geoff Chambers (one of our RRoS forum members) wanted to examine the following scenario.  Since it was so similair to this thread, I thought it best to place here.

I drew it up for him and suggested the following analysis: (please pipe-up if you find an error)

At 2, they are overlapped when Blue enters the zone 
  1. none of 18.1 conditions apply, so 18 applies 
  2. Blue is inside, Yellow is outside, Yellow owes blue mark-room 18.2(b) 
  3. Blue is overlapped to leeward of yellow, so Blue's mark-room does not include room-to-tack (see def 'mark room') 

Just after 3, 
  1. Between 3-4, Blue tacks so her 18.2(b) mark-room is turned off by 18.2(d)
  2. 18.1(a) turns off 18 as they are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward

At 4, they are overlapped inside the zone 
  1. none of 18.1 conditions apply, so 18 applies 
  2. Blue is inside, so Yellow owes Blue mark-room 18.2(a) 
  3. Blue is inside and overlapped to windward, so her mark-room includes room-to-tack 

Note: 18.4 never applies 
  1. When Blue at 5 tacks from port to starboard and is fetching the mark at a port mark rounding, Yellow was not on starboard tack since entering the zone.


image.png 71.6 KB



Created: 19-Aug-22 19:52
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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You seem to have missed out on quite a few transitions, and you have not addressed the right of way rules, which become important every time rule 18 switches off.

How about you repeat the analysis including right of way, for all the transitions as follows

@1, what is the right of way situation?
@2, the first of the boats reaches the zone
@3 Y passes head to wind
@3.5 B passes head to wind
@5 + delta B passes head to wind
@5 + 2delta, Y passes head to wind
@6 - 2delta, B reaches close hauled course
@6 - delta, Y reaches close hauled course
@7 - delta, B becomes clear ahead of Y
Created: 19-Aug-22 23:32
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Angelo Guarino
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John, I purposely didn't get into the ROW stuff .. just focused on 18 (as that's what Geoff was asking) .. but that's certainly worth the exercise .. .

Maybe I'll give someone else a chance here to fill-in all the blanks and take a swing.  If no one else wants to play, I'll do it. 

Any takers? 

Created: 19-Aug-22 23:45
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Angelo Guarino
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<crickets chirping> <crickets chirping> <crickets chirping>

OK .. I'll doesn't look like anyone else is game, so take a whack at it.  I redid the drawing positioning the boats at each critical point-of-sail change.  Also, this is a port-rounding, windward-mark scenario assuming that RRS 17 does not apply between B and Y.

image.png 59.7 KB


  1. @1, Y and B are overlapped when the first of them enter the zone of a windward mark to be rounding to port
    1. B is leeward, ROW by RRS 11 and course-change limited by RRS 16.1
    2. Y must keep-clear of Blue
    3. B is inside-boat for a port-rounding
      1. none of RRS 18.1 conditions apply, therefore RRS 18 is in effect
      2. B is owed mark-room from Yellow, 18.2(b)
      3. B's mark-room does not include room to tack as B is not overlapped to windward of Y (def mark room)
  2. @2, Nothing changes from @1 (I added this to align the positions and the numbered-list)
  3. @3, Y passes head-to-wind, tacking from stb to port
    1. 18 turns off between B & Y, RRS 18.1(a)
    2. Y must keep clear of B, RRS 13 (10,11,12 do not apply), B is still ROW boat
  4. @4, B passes head-to-wind stb to port
    1. B must keep clear of Y, RRS 13 (10,11,12 do not apply), Y is ROW,
    2. Y reaches close-hauled on port and is course-change limited by RRS 16.1
    3. B & Y are both overlapped inside the zone
      1. Y is outside, B is inside, RRS 18.2(a) gives B mark-room
      2. B's mark-room includes room-to-tack as she is overlapped and to windward of Y (def mark room)
      3. B's 18.2(b) previous mark-room ceases to apply by 18.2(d) when B passes HTW, it is 18.2(a) which applies
  5. @5, B reaches close-hauled on port
    1. RRS 13 turns off, RRS 11 turns on, B must keep-clear of Y
    2. Y is ROW, still owes B mark-room which includes room-to-tack, and is course-change limited by RRS 16.1
  6. @6, B & Y tack nearly simultaneously back to stb to round the mark
    1. if one of them passes HTW before the other, RRS 18 momentarily turns off
    2. as soon as they both pass HTW to stb-tack, they are overlapped inside the zone
      1. B is inside, Y is outside, RRS 18.2(a) dictates that Y owes B mark-room
    3. as soon as they both pass HTW, RRS 11 turns off, RRS 13 applies to both
      1. B being the boat to port, B must keep-clear of Y until B reaches close-hauled course, Y is ROW
      2. If B reaches close-hauled before Y, B becomes ROW, RRS 13, then ROW by RRS 11 when Y reaches close-hauled
      3. Until B reaches close-hauled, Y can turn-down faster that B in an attempt to limit B's mark-room, but is course-change limited by RRS 16.1
  7. @7, B&Y reach/pass close-hauled on stb, 
    1. B is ROW RRS 11, owed mark-room by 18.2(a)
    2. RRS 18.2(d)'s conditions do not apply to RRS18.2(a)
      1. 18.2(a) applies as long as the boats are overlapped and as long at 18 applies 
        1. "until they have passed them [the mark]" - preamble Section C
        2. until they both have left the zone - RRS 18.1
    3. RRS 17 does not apply, B is not limited from sailing above her proper course
    4. RRS 18.3 does not apply to B as Y was not on stb since entering the zone

Created: 19-Aug-24 17:36
Geoff Chambers
Nationality: Australia
0
at;
@1 blue RoW rule 11
@2  blue RoW 11, blue entitled mark room 18.2 b
@3 yellow (if) past HTW, 18 turned off. Yellow is between HTW and close hauled on new tack must keep clear - 13. and 10,11,12 do not apply
@3.5 B passes HTW, 18 turned off. B must keep clear while tacking, 13. 10,11,12 do not apply.
@4  rule 11 applies, blue is windward and must keep clear, but is entitled to mark room 18.2.a., and is close hauled to windward therefore entitled to room to tack  Defn. mark room (b)
@5 Blue passes HTW; boats are overlapped. Blue's tack is part of tacking and is entitled to room including for the tack and is ROW under defn of Mark Room to which she is entitled 18.2 a
@5 yellow passes HTW must keep clear 13. 10,11,12 do not apply. Is still bound by 18.2.a to give mark room to Blue. Yellow thereafter is windward obliged by 11
@6 yellow is windward overlapped 11. or if not overlapped is astern still bound by 18 2 b
@7 18.2.d blue has been given mark room. is clear ahead. Yellow bound by 12

How did I go??

Created: 19-Aug-25 00:08
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Geoff,

Pretty good.

@3+delta, rule 18 went off when Y went onto opposite tack (port) to B.

@3.5, then, B passes head to wind onto port tack, same as Y, boats are again on same tack, overlapped, rule 18, specifically rule 18.2a applies, and B  is again entitled to mark-room.  The transition occurs when a boat changes tack by passing head to wind, it does NOT await the boat reaching close hauled.

@5 when B passes head to wind, boats are on opposite tacks, still on a beat to windward, rule 18 in its entirity cases to apply

Case 95

Definitions, Mark-RoomDefinitions, RoomRule 18.1(a), Mark-Room: When Rule 18 AppliesRule 18.2(b), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-RoomRule 18.3, Mark-Room: Tacking in the ZoneRule 21(b), ExonerationRule 64.1(a), Decisions: Penalties and Exoneration
If two overlapped boats on the same tack are on a beat to windward and are subject to rule 18.2(b), rule 18 ceases to apply when either of them turns past head to wind.

@6 if B is clear ahead, boats are no longer overlapped an rule 18.2a does not apply, B is not entitled to mark-room.

Created: 19-Aug-25 00:54
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
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Geoff, 

At 7 in the last diagram they're still overlapped. Blue is leeward ROW and probably still entitled to mark room until her stern passes the mark, so as Blue continues to bear away as necessary to sail the course Yellow must continue to keep clear and provide enough room for Blue's stern to swing. Assuming they both continue to bear away the overlap should be broken shortly after 7 with Blue clear ahead and entitlement to mark room ended as you say. 
Created: 19-Aug-25 03:47
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
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Angelo, in your diagram even if 17 was on @ 1 Blue's proper course would be to sail to the mark so Blue could luff up to HTW without breaking 17. And 17 would be off @ 3 when they're on opposite tacks. 
Created: 19-Aug-25 07:22
Geoff Chambers
Nationality: Australia
0
Thanks all.

I notice the two diagrams are a little differrent but all points seem to have come out. 

I think Yelow's tactical options were two;

tack immediately before entering boats have entered the zone so when blue enters there is no overlap. Then when both tack again, yellow fetching on stb and blue on port, 18 is not on.

Or, yellow continues on stbd from @1 and @2 and when DDW from mark, luffs to 'pinch' the mark without luffing beyond HTW. Yellow being on a beat but to leeward is inside but does not have right to luff beyond HTW so if they don't themselves luff HTW as Tims says, ie proper course, then they cannot lay the mark without luffing beyond HTW. So effectily they give up their rights if they don't luff to lay the mark before they are DDW from it.

And following from that. If they do luff and its not certain if they will 'carry' to the mark, then yellow should luff HTW and keep clear 11, but not go beyond HTW, thereby forcing blue to either fetch the mark or, if they don't they won't have right to go beyond HTW and only option will be to bear away and gybe back around, and hope there's not a stbd pack approaching.


Created: 19-Aug-25 09:33
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Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
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Tim, that’s a good point about 17.  I’ve forced myself into the habit of making some sort of 17 declaration/note in any scenario where the boats first appear in the scenario in a close overlap (which could be “unknown”).

That helps me remember in the hearing room to ask about where and how the overlap began when a party plops the first 2 boat models down overlapped.  
Created: 19-Aug-25 11:34
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Geoff,

I couldn't quite get the point(s) you were trying to get clarified in the scenario we've been discussing, given that the diagrams didn't shown any potential rules breach incidents.

I wonder if this helps you along:

Where boats enter the zone around a windward mark with one boat entitled to what might be called ‘enduring’ mark-room under rule 18.2b and one boat tacks, rule 18 ceases to apply and while boat are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, only the Right of Way Rules (limited by rules 15 and 16) apply.

Thereafter, ‘temporary’ mark-room entitlements under rule 18.2a may flip-flop, on when a boat tacks putting both on the same tack with one overlapped inside, and off when a boat tacks onto opposite tacks.

Created: 19-Aug-26 00:14
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