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In an OD regatta, when do class rules apply? Does an NoR or SI have to say class rules apply? I suppose the class rules could say when they apply, but what if they do not?
Jim, the CR's usually state when they apply. The CR's often state that they apply when boats race in a class OD event.
For instance, in the J105 Class, our CR 1.3 states:
1.3 All yachts, competing in one design or class sponsored events, shall comply with standard specifications published by J Boats, Inc. and these class rules. No alterations or modifications are permitted unless explicitly permitted by these rules.
Def: rule(d) specifically includes Class Rules as a rule
So, as you can see in our CR 1.3, any time J/105's are competing in an OD event, the CR's automatically apply. Now, we had a thread which opened a rabbit-hole regarding handicap systems. Many racers think that if they are racing handicap that they don't need to pay attention to the CR's, but that is not necessarily the case. In that thread we discovered several handicap systems that base their ratings of OD-class boats assuming FULL CR compliance. So an OD boat racing in handicap systems might also be under the CR's for their class of boat.
Jim this is a very good topic and one that I became intimately familiar with in my former role as the J105 Fleet Measurer for the Annapolis fleet (over 30 J/105's in our local fleet) and being on the Nat'l Class TC for 10 years (I have since retired from both of those positions).
Many local OD fleets do not pay close attention to some of their CR's for local non-championship events. Over time, this can train people to think that the CR's don't apply unless stated in the NOR or that the CR's only apply for "serious" events.
The first one of these rules to go by the wayside is crew/weight limits. There are few fleets that have a system to weigh crew for each event or for the season (the season is a tough one as skippers find subs to compete). Eventually the local fleet stops paying attention to crew weight all together.
Some CR's (like the J/105) have limits on who can drive the boat. That's another one that people fudge in the spirit of "getting boats on the line".
Some CR's have the ability to tailor which rules apply based on the "level" of the event. Again, using the J/105 CR's as an example, we have a system of letters and numbers within the CR's to tailor which rules apply in an event.
The letters A/B/C designate who can be on board:
A only Group 3 sailors (except for a 100% owner)
B may have one Group 3 crew
C no limits on crew
The numbers 1/2/3 designate who can drive:
1 only the owner, close family or "long term shipmate" (which has a formula)
2 any Group 1 sailor
3 anyone
The trick here is that unless the NOR states the level of the event, the CR's state it defaults to Level 1A (the most limited).
Now, I'll climb on my soapbox for a moment ..
I've always thought that it's the fairest to everyone that the local OD fleet decide:
on which rules they are going to abandon or modify,
get a rule 87 letter from their class allowing those modifications for certain events,
post that letter on their fleet website
get the OA's to add a reference to these changes to the NOR.
For instance, our local fleet wanted to waive the crew-weight limit for 6 crew as long as there were 2 women on board. Another was that for Level C events, we wanted to have no crew/weight limits (reserved for our weekly Wed-night races and other family-fun events). We have that Rule 87 approval and incorporated that into our local fleet rules.
For instance, here is the NOR for Annapolis YC's Wed Night Series (it's the same NOR for the winter Frostbite Series as well).
1.3 J105 Class Rules are modified by Article IX of the local J-105 Fleet-3 Article/Rules. This event is designated Level 3C. J-105 Fleet-3 Articles/Rules can be found at https://www.j105fleet3.org/rules
Notice above we designate the Level "3C" and provide notice that the rules are changed by our local rules (for which we have a Rule 87 letter). The result is anyone can drive and there are no crew limits on Wed nights.
Each local event we compete in has the same NOR wording, except we change the level. Most weekend events are designated Level 1A, but we customize some weekend charity events with a lower designation.
All this is to say that the CR's apply when there is a OD start. Some CR's have the ability to turn on/off rules based on the level of the event and all local fleets have the ability to request a Rule 87 letter from their Class to customize the CR's to suit their needs for local "non-serious" events.
It's something I've studied too. Wasn't there a recent thread?
78.1 requires conformity with class rules, so as said above, no need for any separate mention in N O R.
I also received an RYA opinion a few years ago that if a craft does not conform to class rules it ceased to be a member of the class.
So if a boat is entered as an XYZ her class rules apply. Even, I am confident , if it's a handicap event.If it's not entered as an XYZ, well that's another matter.
In most cases there's no need for a Rule 87 letter. If a club chooses to list in the NOR class XYZ *and* similar craft not conforming to XYZ class rules then they may. But if they want the event approved by the CA they need the letter
Many years ago I used to use the words "Class Type" in the NoR, with a caveat that any deviation from type could result in the boat having their handicap changed or being moved to a different "Cass Type". We were dealing with sailing centre boats many of which would be modified by the centre or never measured. I don't think anyone really noticed.
Thanks all, great comments. I'm think of the Melges 15 class. I'll review the document again but it's not clear the rules are clear on when they apply. But I'll read them again with these comments in mind.
Just to muddy the waters, in Dublin Bay we have fleets such as the J109 that sail one race scored 3 times: Scratch (One Design), IRC and ECHO (our local handicap system). Which technically means that 3 sets of class rules apply.
Jim, all the class rules always apply unless there is specific wording stating certain rules are limited to certain events.
The M15 event rules section is arguably a bit controversial since if I read it correctly it applies those rules unless they are specifically turned off in NOR. This side of the pond that wouldn't really be viable, since club and even open handicap event organisers are not going to and shouldn't be required to go through dozens of sets of class rules to see what they should turn off.
For whatever my opinion is worth if asked I would counsel the class to turn the rule round and only enable the event rules for specified events, ie major and CA sanctioned, and not impose them automatically on club events, especially as they would be ignored by the majority of clubs.
I read the applicability of Part H Event Rules somewhat differently to you.
H1.1 distinguishes between specified higher level events and 'local club racing and other minor events'.
for the specified higher level events all the Part H Event Rules shall apply;
for other local club racing and minor events rules of Part H, one by one, ,may be invoked by the NOR.
So, either all the Part H Event Rules apply, or the OA has to switch them on, one by one, in the NOR. There is no provision to switch off any rules.
H2.1 is a double bunger: by H1.1 it applies at specified higher level events, but H2.1 still requires the scoring system details to be 'noted' in the NOR AND the SI.
John ... thank you for that deep dive as it underlines the point I made in my 2 comments in this thread.
It is incomplete to simply take the shortcut to def: rules(d) ... Class Rules are rules ... so all the CR's always apply when you have a "class start".
Yes, CR's ARE rules, BUT that in itself does not mean the particular CR's, that limit what a boat may or may-not do, actually apply to a class-start.
As we've seen in my J105 example and now the M15 example you highlight, the CR's themselves have to indicate when and which of their CR's apply.
In case anyone is curious, I asked because there is an upcoming regatta with Lightnings and M15s. The same NoR specifies that all the Lightning CRs and all manner of other things apply, and it is silent with respect to the M15. On it's face this may be considered evidence that the intention is not to have the CRs apply, but I suspect what happened is that it was originally a Lightning regatta and someone quickly edited it to include the M15s.
Currently there are about 15 M15s registered and 3 Lightnings.
Jim .. don't feel bad. It's up to the Local Fleet reps to hound-dog the OA's into getting their language in. It used to be my job and luckily was able to transition that to our local Fleet Scheduler.
Good news is that since most OA's copy/paste year to year ... once it's done it mainly on autopilot.
Jim Archer the intention is not to have the CRs apply,
I disagree. Once the NOR includes the classes to race, the class rules of those classes apply. There is absolutely no requirement to say so in the NOR, and no amount of 'interpretation' can make them not apply.
If those class rules have complex provisions switching some of the class rules on and off in certain circumstances, so be it.
For your upcoming event, it then depends on whether it is a ' World, continental championship, national and seasonal/ regional (e.g. West coast championships, M15 Winter Series)', or some 'other minor event' in accordance with M15 Class Rules H1.1.
These rules are automatically invoked unless otherwise stated in the NOR and only if that event type meets the standard set forth in H.1.1.
H.1.1 For World, continental championship, national and seasonal/ regional (e.g. West coast championships, M15 Winter Series) the rules of this Part H shall be invoked. For local club racing and other minor events rules from section H may be invoked by the Notice of Race.
Okay I went through it more carefully.
Setting aside that people can argue over which regattas are "minor" I would say that this one is. That would seem to mean that the only rules that can apply are those from section H and even then they must be invoked by the NoR. This NoR does not do so, so I presume the class rules don't apply to this regatta.
Jim A, the only rules that can apply are those from section H and even then they must be invoked by the NoR
You go on to say 'I presume the class rules don't apply to this regatta'.
I'm not sure we are on the same wavelength here.
You seem to be saying that because of the Preamble to Part III/H Event Rules the class rules as a whole only apply if invoked by the NOR.
I don't think that that is the best interpretation of the Preamble to Part III. I think the reference to 'These rules' in the Preamble to Part III should be taken to refer to the rules of Part III, not the class rules as a whole.
Secondly, I would contend that the class rules are 'invoked by the NOR' by the combination of the NOR including the class to race and the Definition of rules.
I certainly agree that the M15 class rules are a bit untidy. Examples are the Part III heading for the rules of Part H, and this little doozy:
The suggested starting line length is the (number of boats entered x 15 x 1.25.)
No, I think "these rules" mean all the CRs because section H is referred to differently in the same sentance. I also think that "invoked by the NoR" means the NoR specifically says they apply. If they applied just because there is an M15 regatta then why say anything?
I also caught the lack of unit on the start line calculation.
John, I found the text somewhat contradictory. The preamble to section H says
These rules are automatically invoked unless otherwise stated in the NOR and only if that event type meets the standard set forth in H.1.1
So I read that as meaning that they apply unless specifically turned off in NOR AND if the event type applies. In other words default is on for all events.
But then
H.1.1 For World, continental championship, national and seasonal/ regional (e.g. West Coast championships, M15 Winter Series) the rules of this Part H shall be invoked. For local club racing and other minor events rules from section H may be invoked by the Notice of Race.
Which without the preamble certainly would mean only turned on if invoked in NOR. But with the preamble my reading is that minor events may selectively turn on and off section H rules. But another reading would be that the default is off unless turned on.
TBH I reckon it would be a lot clearer if the preamble simply said something like "These rules are invoked for events as stated in H 1.1“. It certainly seems feasible to read the preamble two ways.
"These rules are automatically invoked unless otherwise stated in the NOR and only if that event type meets the standard set forth in H.1.1"
Yea ... that's an "interesting" sentence construction.
They need to flip those 2 phrases I think.
These rules are automatically invoked unless otherwise stated in the NOR and only if that [when the] event type meets the standard set forth in H.1.1, [unless otherwise stated in the NOR].
I think Jim A is drawing a very long bow to suggest that a paragraph under a distinct heading 'Event Rules' on page 19 of the class rules somehow makes the class rules applicable only if cited in the NOR.
I agree that the Preamble and H1 are not perfectly drafted, but I think a reasonably purposive construction is that:
For World, continental championship, national and seasonal/ regional (e.g. West coast championships, M15 Winter Series) the Event Rules apply automatically.
For local club racing and other minor events the Event Rules apply one by one, if the NOR says so.
I would agree that it is unclear whether, for the specified major events, the NOR can switch off any or all of the Event Rules.
I honestly have no idea what they are trying to say, but ultimately what matters is not what they are trying to say, or what their intention was, but what is actually written. I have parsed many legal documents and although this is not technically a legal document, it should be written clearly. I'm not just being pedantic; this is hard to parse.
But the easiest fix is to get the OA for the upcoming regatta to amend the NoR to address their desire for the class rules. That regatta is still several weeks away and I know the people who run it so I'll give them a call.
For instance, in the J105 Class, our CR 1.3 states:
Def: rule(d) specifically includes Class Rules as a rule
So, as you can see in our CR 1.3, any time J/105's are competing in an OD event, the CR's automatically apply. Now, we had a thread which opened a rabbit-hole regarding handicap systems. Many racers think that if they are racing handicap that they don't need to pay attention to the CR's, but that is not necessarily the case. In that thread we discovered several handicap systems that base their ratings of OD-class boats assuming FULL CR compliance. So an OD boat racing in handicap systems might also be under the CR's for their class of boat.
The class rules of whatever classes are identified in the NOR apply in accordance with the Definition Rules.
It is superfluous, and contrary to NOTICE OF RACE GUIDE Principle 4 to say in the NOR that class rules apply.
Many local OD fleets do not pay close attention to some of their CR's for local non-championship events. Over time, this can train people to think that the CR's don't apply unless stated in the NOR or that the CR's only apply for "serious" events.
The first one of these rules to go by the wayside is crew/weight limits. There are few fleets that have a system to weigh crew for each event or for the season (the season is a tough one as skippers find subs to compete). Eventually the local fleet stops paying attention to crew weight all together.
Some CR's (like the J/105) have limits on who can drive the boat. That's another one that people fudge in the spirit of "getting boats on the line".
Some CR's have the ability to tailor which rules apply based on the "level" of the event. Again, using the J/105 CR's as an example, we have a system of letters and numbers within the CR's to tailor which rules apply in an event.
The letters A/B/C designate who can be on board:
The numbers 1/2/3 designate who can drive:
The trick here is that unless the NOR states the level of the event, the CR's state it defaults to Level 1A (the most limited).
Now, I'll climb on my soapbox for a moment ..
I've always thought that it's the fairest to everyone that the local OD fleet decide:
For instance, our local fleet wanted to waive the crew-weight limit for 6 crew as long as there were 2 women on board. Another was that for Level C events, we wanted to have no crew/weight limits (reserved for our weekly Wed-night races and other family-fun events). We have that Rule 87 approval and incorporated that into our local fleet rules.
For instance, here is the NOR for Annapolis YC's Wed Night Series (it's the same NOR for the winter Frostbite Series as well).
Notice above we designate the Level "3C" and provide notice that the rules are changed by our local rules (for which we have a Rule 87 letter). The result is anyone can drive and there are no crew limits on Wed nights.
Each local event we compete in has the same NOR wording, except we change the level. Most weekend events are designated Level 1A, but we customize some weekend charity events with a lower designation.
All this is to say that the CR's apply when there is a OD start. Some CR's have the ability to turn on/off rules based on the level of the event and all local fleets have the ability to request a Rule 87 letter from their Class to customize the CR's to suit their needs for local "non-serious" events.
78.1 requires conformity with class rules, so as said above, no need for any separate mention in N O R.
I also received an RYA opinion a few years ago that if a craft does not conform to class rules it ceased to be a member of the class.
So if a boat is entered as an XYZ her class rules apply. Even, I am confident , if it's a handicap event.If it's not entered as an XYZ, well that's another matter.
In most cases there's no need for a Rule 87 letter. If a club chooses to list in the NOR class XYZ *and* similar craft not conforming to XYZ class rules then they may. But if they want the event approved by the CA they need the letter
I don't think anyone really noticed.
The M15 event rules section is arguably a bit controversial since if I read it correctly it applies those rules unless they are specifically turned off in NOR. This side of the pond that wouldn't really be viable, since club and even open handicap event organisers are not going to and shouldn't be required to go through dozens of sets of class rules to see what they should turn off.
For whatever my opinion is worth if asked I would counsel the class to turn the rule round and only enable the event rules for specified events, ie major and CA sanctioned, and not impose them automatically on club events, especially as they would be ignored by the majority of clubs.
I read the applicability of Part H Event Rules somewhat differently to you.
H1.1 distinguishes between specified higher level events and 'local club racing and other minor events'.
So, either all the Part H Event Rules apply, or the OA has to switch them on, one by one, in the NOR. There is no provision to switch off any rules.
H2.1 is a double bunger: by H1.1 it applies at specified higher level events, but H2.1 still requires the scoring system details to be 'noted' in the NOR AND the SI.
It is incomplete to simply take the shortcut to def: rules(d) ... Class Rules are rules ... so all the CR's always apply when you have a "class start".
Yes, CR's ARE rules, BUT that in itself does not mean the particular CR's, that limit what a boat may or may-not do, actually apply to a class-start.
As we've seen in my J105 example and now the M15 example you highlight, the CR's themselves have to indicate when and which of their CR's apply.
Currently there are about 15 M15s registered and 3 Lightnings.
Good news is that since most OA's copy/paste year to year ... once it's done it mainly on autopilot.
I disagree. Once the NOR includes the classes to race, the class rules of those classes apply. There is absolutely no requirement to say so in the NOR, and no amount of 'interpretation' can make them not apply.
If those class rules have complex provisions switching some of the class rules on and off in certain circumstances, so be it.
For your upcoming event, it then depends on whether it is a ' World, continental championship, national and seasonal/ regional (e.g. West coast championships, M15 Winter Series)', or some 'other minor event' in accordance with M15 Class Rules H1.1.
Okay I went through it more carefully.
Setting aside that people can argue over which regattas are "minor" I would say that this one is. That would seem to mean that the only rules that can apply are those from section H and even then they must be invoked by the NoR. This NoR does not do so, so I presume the class rules don't apply to this regatta.
These could be better written.
You go on to say 'I presume the class rules don't apply to this regatta'.
I'm not sure we are on the same wavelength here.
You seem to be saying that because of the Preamble to Part III/H Event Rules the class rules as a whole only apply if invoked by the NOR.
I don't think that that is the best interpretation of the Preamble to Part III. I think the reference to 'These rules' in the Preamble to Part III should be taken to refer to the rules of Part III, not the class rules as a whole.
Secondly, I would contend that the class rules are 'invoked by the NOR' by the combination of the NOR including the class to race and the Definition of rules.
I certainly agree that the M15 class rules are a bit untidy. Examples are the Part III heading for the rules of Part H, and this little doozy:
The suggested starting line length is the (number of boats entered x 15 x 1.25.)
What? Feet, inches, Angstroms?
I also caught the lack of unit on the start line calculation.
Since its M15, I gather it's whatever the 15 in M15 refers to.
These rules are automatically invoked unless otherwise stated in the NOR and only if that event type meets the standard set forth in H.1.1
So I read that as meaning that they apply unless specifically turned off in NOR AND if the event type applies. In other words default is on for all events.
But then
H.1.1 For World, continental championship, national and seasonal/ regional (e.g. West Coast championships, M15 Winter Series) the rules of this Part H shall be invoked. For local club racing and other minor events rules from section H may be invoked by the Notice of Race.
Which without the preamble certainly would mean only turned on if invoked in NOR. But with the preamble my reading is that minor events may selectively turn on and off section H rules. But another reading would be that the default is off unless turned on.
TBH I reckon it would be a lot clearer if the preamble simply said something like "These rules are invoked for events as stated in H 1.1“. It certainly seems feasible to read the preamble two ways.
Yea ... that's an "interesting" sentence construction.
They need to flip those 2 phrases I think.
These rules are automatically invoked
unless otherwise stated in the NOR and only if that[when the] event type meets the standard set forth in H.1.1, [unless otherwise stated in the NOR].Is that what they are trying to say?
I agree that the Preamble and H1 are not perfectly drafted, but I think a reasonably purposive construction is that:
I would agree that it is unclear whether, for the specified major events, the NOR can switch off any or all of the Event Rules.
But the easiest fix is to get the OA for the upcoming regatta to amend the NoR to address their desire for the class rules. That regatta is still several weeks away and I know the people who run it so I'll give them a call.