Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

NP protest

Hans Vengberg
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
 In the SI for an event a para read:

”NP - The safety of a boat and her entire management, including insurance, shall
be the sole and inescapable responsibility of the owner and/or entrant.”

Boat ”A” protest boat ”B” for not having a valid insurance.

How should the protestkommitte handle this protest, and what should the decision be ?
Created: 25-Apr-08 16:50

Comments

Sue Reilly
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1
What do the SI's say about 'NP'
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:12
Brad Alberts
0
Doesn’t ‘NP’ mean Not Protestable?
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:16
Hans Vengberg
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  • International Judge
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0
SI wording:
The notation ‘[NP]’ in a rule in the Sailing Instructions (SIs) means it shall not be grounds
for protest by a boat. This change is added to RRS 60.1(a).
 
 
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:20
Graham Louth
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And what does the NoR say about insurance? (Are boats required to be insured?)
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:20
Graham Louth
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There is no "60.1(a)" in the 2025-2028 RRS!
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:22
Hans Vengberg
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NOR:
Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance for racing risks with a
minimum cover of $300,000 per incident or the equivalent. 

The OA is not responsible for verifying the status or validity of insurance certificates 
 
 
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:23
Graham Louth
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Is that rule (in the NoR) marked as [NP]?
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:28
Hans Vengberg
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No, the ref. are to the old rule book - Think the new rule ref. would be 60.1 - not really important for the case, let´s assume the SI rule are correctly worded.
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:29
Graham Louth
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Is this a real case, or just a hypothetical one?!?!
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:36
Hans Vengberg
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Graham - let´s just say the NoR also say NP - and it is a hypothetical situation.
Created: 25-Apr-08 17:41
Tom Shenstone
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1
As I see it, NP is used to prevent boats setting each other up for disqualification for things they should have done but didn't do during the entry process, perhaps because they weren't asked to by the OA.  But if the requirement to show proof of insurance wasn't enforced during the entry process, it seems to me that the "plaintiff" boat should raise the matter of the other boat's insurance with the Organizing Authority, who can then decide what to do.  Of course, doing something raises a fairness issue - every competitor's proof of insurance would have to be checked.  A boat without insurance could then be disqualified as not having met the requirements for entry, after which the boat could ask for redress.   The "plaintiff" should be willing to withdraw from the event (so as not to risk boat and crew against a boat not capable of handling an accident) if the OA won't address the issue, or just drop it.

I would ask the OA to avoid all this by enforcing the rules it sets for entry at ththe time of entry.  After-the-fact remediation is conducive to discord.
Created: 25-Apr-08 18:02
Graham Louth
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OK, in that case, in my view (which others may disagree with):
  • The rule in the SIs is irrelevant - it doesn't impose any obligation on a boat to *have* insurance.
  • The relevant rule is the one in the NoR, which does require each boat to be insured.
  • If that rule is marked as [NP] and there is a suitably worded definition of [NP] in the NoR (for example the latest guidance from WS = "The notation ‘[NP]’ in a rule means that a boat may not protest another boat for breaking that rule.  This changes RRS 60.1.") then the protest should be found to be invalid by the protest committee (the protest committee should call a hearing to confirm that this is indeed the rule that is alleged to have been broken, and on that basis find the protest to be invalid).

I personally would recommend not marking this rule as [NP].
Created: 25-Apr-08 18:12
Sue Reilly
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Graham - curious as to why you recommend not marking it [NP]?
Created: 25-Apr-08 18:22
Hans Vengberg
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Graham - are you sure the protest is invalid - or do you say that facts found is, that boat A cannot protest boat B for this, as the rule to be used in the NoR is a NP rule ?
Hense boat B are not penalized, as this part of the protest cannot be heard?

Has boat A has broken a rule by protesting a NP rule?

Decision: Boat A dsq ?
Created: 25-Apr-08 18:38
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
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Is not minimum insurance listed as an entry requirements in the NOR?
Created: 25-Apr-08 19:29
P
Michael Butterfield
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2
When it is your responsibility to insure the boat and you do not, then a nor saying you should insure means you sailed knowingly in breach at a rule. This complaint is therefore a rrs 69 report and can be dealt with as such.
Created: 25-Apr-08 19:38
Rob Rowlands
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This comment is specific to the original question as amended by the addition of NP in both NoR and SIs. 

The  Boat A protest is not valid due to NP. 

The PC can only protest if it learned in the original hearing process that there was damage or injury

However, the OA can protest and their protest would be subject to validity.

Bottom line- It’s up to the OA to decide what to do. 
Created: 25-Apr-08 20:41
Tom Shenstone
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Let's go back to the question:  should a boat protest another for not having insurance?

I don't think we want fleet members challenging each other on such things, so NP makes sense to me.  It's really an entry condition, and should be applied by the OA.  It doesn't affect the actual racing.  Knowingly lieing about insurance is unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of the owner, not the boat, so Rule 69 seems appropriate if the lie is exposed, e.g. after a collision.  But simple error wouldn't get you to Rule 69.

Beyond that, I don't see how the boat vs boat protest procedure can readily be applied.  Alleging that another boat is uninsured is fishing for dirt how would the protestor know that the protested boat doesn't have insurance a propori.  Moreover, does a protesting boat have standing about the existence of insurance - what is the damage to its placing caused by the alleged absence of insurance?  The OA, on the other hand, can argue that competitors have an expectation of loss/damage mitigation in mind when they enter, so for the good of the event it can impose insurance requirements as part of the price of entry.  In applying the rules, the OA has an obligation to be fair, and can be subject to redress if it isn't.  
Created: 25-Apr-08 20:42
Hans Vengberg
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Let me give you my take on this scenario - I could be wront !
We have a protest, and we have to hear it RRS 63.2 (a).
First we check validity - Validity do not check which rules apply - so let´s assume all validity issues are fulfilled.
Then we start the hearing and find that:

Alt. 1:
Boat B has a valid insurance - no rule broken
Boat A has broken NOR xy - Boat A DSQ.
Alt. 2:
Boat B do not have a valid insurance - NoR xy broken.
a) If NoR xy are part of the conditions to enter, then boat B are not entered and should be removed from the competitorlist.
b) If not a condition for entering, then boat B have broken NOR xy and are DSQ for races up til this, and can not compete before he produce a valid proof of insurance.
A RRS 69 should be considered.
Boat A has broken NOR xy - Boat A DSQ.

For me this would be the correct procedure;
the question of B´s valid insurance are delt with.
the issue of A´s NP protest are delt with.

I raised this issue to establish what to do if a boat protest using a NP rule.
Created: 25-Apr-08 21:18
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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In my opinion making one NOR/SI NP does not make some other NOR/SI that is not marked NP, but deals with the same subject matter, not protestable.

The SI quoted in the OP
 
”NP - The safety of a boat and her entire management, including insurance, shall be the sole and inescapable responsibility of the owner and/or entrant.”

is not a rule that it is possible for a boat to break:  it does not state anything that a boat shall or shall not do.

So whether or not it is marked NP is, to a degree, irrelevant.

The NOR later quoted by Hans

Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance for racing risks with a minimum cover of $300,000 per incident or the equivalent.

is a rule that a boat can break.  It is not marked NP and so may be protested by any boat.

A protest relates to an 'incident'.  Under the 2025 RRS there is no requirement for a protest to refer to any particular rule  (RRS 60.3(b)) and a reference in a protest to a rule other than the one actually relevant does not affect the validity of the protest  (Case 22).  It is up to the protest committee to find relevant facts and apply the relevant rule.

Conceivably a protest committee hearing a protest referring only to the OP cited SI might overlook the Insurance NOR.  I suggest that that would be a pretty inattentive protest committee. 
Created: 25-Apr-08 21:38
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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 Rob Rowlands the OA can protest and their protest would be subject to validity

Rob, what rule entitles an OA to protest?
Created: 25-Apr-08 21:40
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Hans  I raised this issue to establish what to do if a boat protest using a NP rule.

Using 'may not' in rules is problematic.  The 'not' can be used to negate the permission conveyed by the 'may' or it may be intended to negate the following action.

Perhaps it is useful to consider how the   WS SI Guide [NP] notation operates to change RRS 60.1, and for arguments sake. lets consider the 2021 version.

WS SI Guide: The notation ‘[NP]’ in a rule of the sailing instructions (SIs) means that a boat may not protest another boat for breaking that rule.  This changes RRS 60.1 
 
2021 RRS 60.1(a):  A boat may ... protest another boat, but not for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless she was involved in or saw the incident;

The change to RRS 60.1 by using  'NP' is that it would now read

A boat may ... protest another boat, but not for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless she was involved in or saw the incident or for a NOR/SI marked [NP];

We would not contemplate protesting and penalising a boat for mistakenly protesting for a Part 2 breach that she did not actually see:  we would just declare the protest invalid.

I think the same should apply to NP.

If it is desired for a rule to forbid a boat from doing someting, don't use 'may not':  use 'shall not'. 
Created: 25-Apr-08 22:57
Rob Rowlands
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Thanks to John Allan for bringing to our attention that indeed an OA is NOT listed in RRS 60.1 and cannot bring a protest against a boat. 

Should the PC learn from the OA that a boat may be in violation of a Rule then the PC can consider protesting a boat. 
Created: 25-Apr-08 23:24
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Rob, the OA can also direct the race committee to protest a boat in accordance with RRS 90.1
Created: 25-Apr-09 00:00
Graham Louth
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@Hans Vengberg - My thinking was along the same lines as John Allen. The WS recommended definition of [NP] is a change to RRS 60.1 which, to my mind, limits the circumstances in which a boat may protest another boat, but does not prohibit a boat from doing so (as John says, it says "may not" rather than "shall not"). I would go further and note that RRS 60.4(a)(1) says that a protest is invalid if it does not comply with the definition Protest, and the definition Protest says a protest is "an allegation made under rule 60 by a boat or a committee that a boat has broken a rule". To my mind then a protest by a boat alleging a breach of an [NP] rule would not comply with rule 60 (be "made under rule 60") and hence would be invalid. I would definitely accept that other interpretations are possible, but I think this one is both straight-forward and reasonable.

If you wanted to avoid your interpretation (which personally I would - I wouldn't want to be penalising boats for protesting, even if they were for breaches of rules marked [NP]) you could change the definition of [NP]. For example (perhaps):
"The notation ‘[NP]’ in a rule means that any protest by a boat alleging that another boat has broken that rule is invalid so far as that specific allegation is concerned. This changes RRS 60.4(a)."

Also, I am not entirely happy with your Alt 2: a) "If NoR xy are part of the conditions to enter, then boat B are not entered and should be removed from the competitorlist." I do not believe it is in the power of the protest committee to remove competitors from the entry list (or require the OA or RC to do so) - only the OA or RC can do that, and they have to comply with RRS 76.
Created: 25-Apr-09 09:01
Graham Louth
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@Sue Reilly - A breach of a rule requiring boats to have valid third-party liability insurance is potentially of significance for other boats - they wouldn't be able to claim against the insurance of the uninsured boat for damage or injury caused by the uninsured boat. Hence, if a boat has reason to believe that another boat may not have the required insurance, I think they should be allowed to protest (i.e. in my view the rule should not be [NP], despite the World Sailing guidance). I don't see that as being very different from, for example, being able to protest for breaches of class rules under RRS 78.
Created: 25-Apr-09 09:13
Ant Davey
Nationality: United Kingdom
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1
I'm with John Allen on the validity question. If the SIs say a boat cannot protest another boat for breaking that rule, then the protest is simply invalid. No disqualification.
The 'correct' procedure would have been for Boat A to submit a report to the PC that Boat B did not have the insurance required by the NoR. It's then for the PC to decide if it goes down the 69.2(b) route.
Created: 25-Apr-09 10:15
Hans Vengberg
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  • International Judge
  • National Umpire
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Agree that we would not penalize a boat for mistakenly protesting for a Part 2 breach that she did not actually see, because the RRS say that such a protest per definition are invalid - 60.4(a)(2).
But we still have to have a hearing to check validity and then the facts to to conclude that RRS 60.4 apply - protest invalid ?
NP are NOT part of RRS 60.4, so a breach of a NP rule are not per definition invalid - and we should then decide what to do with both A and B ?
I agree that there are several smarter ways A could handle the problem - but in this scenario he did protest !
Created: 25-Apr-09 13:32
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Graham Louth I am not entirely happy with your Alt 2: a) "If NoR xy are part of the conditions to enter, then boat B are not entered and should be removed from the competitorlist." I do not believe it is in the power of the protest committee to remove competitors from the entry list (or require the OA or RC to do so) - only the OA or RC can do that, and they have to comply with RRS 76.

I think Hans had in mind Q&A 2018-016
Rule 75.1, Entering a Race

The number of boats entered in a race is the number of boats that complied with the requirements of the organizing authority.

Situation:
45 boats registered and paid on-line for a two-day regatta. The Notice of Race stated that boats have to complete the on-site part of the registration which included presenting their sails for equipment inspection. 40 of the registered boats appeared on-site and met the requirements of the Notice of Race.
Question:
How many points should boats which did not start, did not finish, retired or were disqualified be scored?
Answer:
41 points.
40 boats complied with the requirements of the organizing authority and therefore entered the race according to rule 75.1.

That is to say a boat that does not comply with 'the requirements of the OA' is not entered in a race.

I realise that this Q&A has expired, but it seems like reasonable guidance.

I cannot see any reason why a protest committee, once it concludes that a boat is entitled to redress cannot give redress by deciding that a non-complying boat is not entered and directing the OA and race committee accordingly.  In fact if this course of action is 'as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected' then the protest committee, by RRS 61.4(c), is required to do so.

The protest committee would need to look very carefully at the NOR to distinguish between the 'requirements of the organising authority' [relevant to entering the event] and other NOR items that are just rules.
Created: 25-Apr-09 13:49
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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Graham Louth and Sue Reilly, Making Insurance NOR [NP]
I agree with Graham:  there is no point in making a basic requirement for a boat to be insured in NOR [NP]. In the absence of a separate requirement for boats to provide proof of insurance to the OA, the OA/RC has no better knowledge of whether a boat is insured than any competitor, and allowing a boat to protest is the most straightforward way of dealing with this.

While I dislike over-use of RRS 69, I think that, quite bluntly, if a boat is not covered by required insurance the OA/RC should do everything possible to chase them away from the event and I agree with Mike B that RRS 69 is the appropriate formal way to do this.  Note that, unlike a breach of class rules where a protest committee can disqualify a boat from multiple races under RRS 60.5(d)(3), for a breach of a NOR, unless you go the 'never properly entered at all' route, the protest committee can only disqualify a boat one race at a time.

Note also that while I think the basic 'insurance required' NOR should not be [NP], any 'provide insurance proof' requirement should  be [NP}, because this is an administrative requirement solely within the knowledge of the OA/RC, and is not directly relevant to competitors.
Created: 25-Apr-09 14:04
P
John Allan
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Ant Davey The 'correct' procedure would have been for Boat A to submit a report to the PC that Boat B did not have the insurance required by the NoR. It's then for the PC to decide if it goes down the 69.2(b) route.

The OP scenario, as Hans expanded it had a NOR saying Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance for racing risks with a minimum cover of $300,000 per incident or the equivalent. 

That NOR was not marked [NP].  A boat is perfectly entitled to protest a boat for not complying with that NOR and would be quite 'correct' in doing so.

As discussed in my previous post, that could only result in disqualification from one race, and to exclude the non-complying boat from other races it may be appropriate for the protest committee then to go the RRS 69 route.
Created: 25-Apr-09 14:09
P
Michael Butterfield
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It is not recommended that the OA inspect insurance certificates.
If there is something wrong they do not pick up they may be bringing a legal liability onto themselves. 
Here in the UK the RYA do not recommend it.

Created: 25-Apr-09 14:23
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Angelo Guarino
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Isn't this an "entry" issue?  If the boat did not comply the requirements for entry, the boat then was not entered in the event.

It then becomes a book keeping issue, not a protest issue.

We had an interesting thread on this in the past.  I'll dig it up and post the link.

PS: "Enter the zombies" thread. 
Created: 25-Apr-09 21:46
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Angelo Guarino
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The "zombie" thread resulted in PeterVM submitting a question to the Q&A service.  Here is the reponse.

Q&A 2021.003
Created: 25-Apr-09 21:56
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
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I was sort of waiting for the 'rabbit hole' expert to come along.

If a sailboat did not enter an event, is she subject to any rules at all?
Created: 25-Apr-09 23:27
Russell Beale
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Let's try a different rabbit hole.....

”NP - The safety of a boat and her entire management, including insurance, shall
be the sole and inescapable responsibility of the owner and/or entrant.”

As a clarification, can you have something (in this case, insurance) be the "sole" responsibility of two people - the owner and the entrant (assuming this was the case)?  Is this not inconsistent - and if it is inconsistent, what interperetation should the protest committee put on it?

Created: 25-Apr-09 23:52
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Michael Butterfield
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Consider rrs 3 by participating, you accept the rules.
Created: 25-Apr-10 07:55
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Angelo Guarino
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John re: "If a sailboat did not enter an event, is she subject to any rules at all?"

Yes .. that was the subject of the zombie thread.  You had a comprehensive comment here which was then the launching point for a couple deep-dives.
Created: 25-Apr-10 12:29
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John Allan
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Ang, yes, but the definition of boat has changed since then.

On reflection, I don't think it makes any difference.

If there is an entry form with the RRS J1.2(12) words and/or other evidence of participating or intending to participate, she's agreed to be governed by the rules.
Created: 25-Apr-10 13:36
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John Allan
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Russell, I don't think a (perfectly reasonable) quibble about the meaning os 'sole' causes ambiguity.

My problem is that this 'rule' does not state anything that a boat shall or shall not do, so it cannot be broken.
Created: 25-Apr-10 13:41
Russell Beale
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@John - indeed, I was simply taking us in another direction.

Still interested to know whether if it's ambiguous it still stands.  In more general terms, are these NOR/SI ambiguities dealt with like redress - to make the fairest possible outcome for all - or strictly interpreted - if ambiguous then unenforceable in some situations (and maybe so unenforceable in all?)
Created: 25-Apr-10 21:55
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John Allan
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Russell Beale Still interested to know whether if it's ambiguous it still stands.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'whether ... it still stands'.

Writing an ambiguous NOR/SI may be an improper action, but there's no specific rule that says NOR/SI must be unambiguous or must make sense.  An OA/RC can write 'Mary had a little lamb' and it breaks no rule.

In more general terms, are these NOR/SI ambiguities dealt with like redress - to make the fairest possible outcome for all - or strictly interpreted - if ambiguous then unenforceable in some situations (and maybe so unenforceable in all?) 

Well, within the ambit of the RRS, the only way a NOR/SI can be 'enforced' is by a protest committee, either deciding a protest or giving redress.

Given that the SI does not specify anything that a boat shall or shall not do, it can't be broken by a boat, so that rules out a protest.

So, suppose a boat requests redress asserting that it is ambiguous and that it is therefore an improper action.

Before a protest committee goes anywhere near considering 'as fair an arrangement as possible' under RRS  61.4(c) it must conclude that a boat is entitled to redress, applying the usual three criteria:
  • improper action or improper omission,
  • made score or place significantly worse, and
  • through no fault of her own.

I don't think the 'responsibility' for insurance can have any effect on a boat's score or place, so the conditions are not made out and no boat is entitled to redress.
Created: 25-Apr-11 11:43
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Angelo Guarino
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John re: "Well, within the ambit of the RRS, the only way a NOR/SI can be 'enforced' is by a protest committee, either deciding a protest or giving redress."

Hmm .. again except when it comes to issues of "entry".  The OA can "enforce" issues of "entry" administratively.

IMO, the insurance is an issue regarding an entry requirement.

Hans offers further information to his OP with the NOR's and SI's in follow-on comments.  Here they are all combined.

  • NOR: Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance for racing risks with a minimum cover of $300,000 per incident or the equivalent. 
  • SI: (NP) - The safety of a boat and her entire management, including insurance, shall be the sole and inescapable responsibility of the owner and/or entrant. 
  • SI NotationThe notation ‘[NP]’ in a rule in the Sailing Instructions (SIs) means it shall not be grounds for protest by a boat. This change is added to RRS 60.1(a). 

So, if the intent was to make not having insurance "NP", then "NP" should have been on the NOR, not SI.  Having it on the SI as worded is not clear IMO.

OK .. but let's assume that "NP" was on the NOR to make the issue at hand clear.

NOR: (NP) Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance for racing risks with a minimum cover of $300,000 per incident or the equivalent. 

In the event Boat A learns that Boat B does not have insurance, Boat A should notify the OA and the OA should then ask Boat B for proof of insurance, and if it does not exist the OA should exclude Boat B from the event unless it is remedied.   I think this is done administratively, not through a protest process (the Q&A is pretty clear on that Q&A 2021.003)

IMO (not being a lawyer), if an OA was so notified, but the OA allows Boat B to compete and that boat causes serious injury or damage and Boat B does not have the ability to cover the costs, I would think the damaged boat (or injured people) could potentially have a case to be made against the OA for negligence (or whatever the proper legal term is).

Yes, the documents state that it is not the responsibility of the OA to research and verify insurance for each boat.  That seems to me (again not being a lawyer) to be different than being notified that a boat lacks insurance and turning a blind-eye.

PS: Sort'a reminds me about trees falling from a storm.  If a storm comes through and a tree falls, well .. that's an act of Nature.  If on the other hand you inform your neighbor in writing that their tall dead tree needs to be taken down because it is a hazard, and they do nothing about it, I believe that's a different situation in the US when that tree comes down and destroys your house.
Created: 25-Apr-11 12:55
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Michael Butterfield
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As I said the oa should not ispect insurance documents.

The oa could refuse entry before the first race but it does not have to do so.

The np is regretfully.

But sailing with no insurance when you should have it is misconduct.

A report should be put to the PC  who have the power to remove the boat from the event.

Why complicate this is what a PC or jury are for.

It is our unique position and justifies the cost of asking us!
Created: 25-Apr-11 16:00
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John Allan
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 Ang, My response to Russell was focused on the weak SI about responsibility, not on the issue as a whole.

I have misgivings that the effect of  Q&A 2021.003 is, as you contend, to give an OA power to unilaterally act to exclude a boat from an event after having permitted her to race in at least one race.  This requires the OA to invent an entirely new procedure that is nowhere described or mentioned in the RRS.

It seems to be exactly contrary to RRS  76.1(a), which, as far as I can see, expressly prohibits this very thing.

Even for something more fundamental than insurance, let's say not paying the entry fee, once the OA has relinquished their leverage by allowing the boat to sail in a race, I think they can't go back and cancel the entry without going the RRS 69 route.

As I discussed in the Zombies thread there are all sorts of 'soft' factors that a wise OA would need to consider. 
Created: 25-Apr-13 00:55
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Angelo Guarino
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OK John, how can one read the Q&A another way, especially when considering Q&A's #2 and #3?  How do you frame the answer "not applicable" to ALL  the questions differently?

The Q&A is not authoritative .. so of course one could just say they got it wrong.
Created: 25-Apr-13 10:46
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