Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Recovering from Missing a Mark

Geoff Webber
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Though the following incident did occur, it is not part of any protest filing, hearing or proceeding and the filing deadlines are long past.

I am clear ahead and fetching a starboard rounding windward mark on port.
At the last minute a shift causes me to miss the mark to my port.
I gybe immediately (all within the zone) which now puts me on Stbd.
There are boats fetching the mark on port (and on a collision course with me).
I hailed STBD and claimed Mark room.
The other boats claimed I had no rights, but as I had not hit the Mark, I don't believe I was exonerating myself and therefore had right of way.

Views please..
Created: 19-Jul-29 17:02

Comments

P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Geof, members will want to know how far from the Port boats were you when you finished your gybe and reached close hauled STB?  PS a drawing would be helpful. 
Created: 19-Jul-29 17:15
John Christman
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
  • Regional Race Officer
0
A diagram would be very helpful here.
Created: 19-Jul-29 17:28
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Race Officer
  • National Umpire
0
Do either of these diagrams represent the scenario?

image.png 56.5 KB
 
Created: 19-Jul-29 17:57
Satyavir Siwatch
Nationality: India
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Dear Geof ,
To me it looks like which ever way i see it , you had the ROW (10 Initially) and Mark Room (18 later) . I find this video (link below ) very helpful. Hope it settles .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZITlXzJG57Y&fbclid=IwAR3xgKtoraIpS-cBZOuHgnkuUJqAgYy5ymyvUFGtWOzE26LWIQgoFI4GLqw 

Created: 19-Jul-29 18:06
Means Davis
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
0
Once on stbd. close haul, rule 10 - you are a right of way boat subject to rule 15. You do not have Mark Room as rule 18 is turned off - see 18.1(b)
Created: 19-Jul-29 18:59
Geoff Webber
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
0
Hi All 
Here is my rather crude diagram, which matches the more professional one provided by Mark...

I was some distance ahead of red and yellow, before missing the mark.
I had completed the gybe before we arrived at the Port / STBD conflict.
rounding.png 20.6 KB
Created: 19-Jul-29 19:01
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Geof, so closer to Mark’s Blue/Yellow scenario?
Created: 19-Jul-29 19:20
Geoff Webber
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
0
Angelo, yes. I entered the zone well ahead of the red boat. As I gybed red entered the zone
Created: 19-Jul-29 19:37
John Eilers
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
Port, it seems, is not required to respond to starboard until she is on Starboard; thus the opportunity for collision that is starboard's fault is high.  For safety sake there should probably be e rule that for starboard roundings, any boat that tacks or jibes within the three boat length's of the mark becomes the burdened boat?
Created: 19-Jul-29 20:44
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
1
Seems to me that once she completes her tack onto stbd Blue is ROW, subject to 15 & 16.1.

If Blue tacks back onto port into a leeward  or clear ahead position (without breaking 13) she's then ROW and entitled to mark room. If Blue crosses and tacks to windward she's got no rights and must give mark room to inside boats. 
Created: 19-Jul-29 21:00
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim, the boat ahead in the zone gybes, not tacks. 
Created: 19-Jul-29 21:11
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Race Officer
  • National Umpire
0
Assuming the following diagram to be accurate. Means answer is still correct.
1. When you gybe onto starboard between position 3 & 4 you become the starboard R-o-W under r10(b), and initially required to give the other boat room to keep clear under 15.
2. When luff to close hauled between 4 and 6 you a right-of-way boat changing course and need to give blue and red room to keep clear under 16.1(b).
3. At position 5, when you hail from mark room, rule 18 does not apply, see 18.1(b)

The following cases are worth reading 9 and 11 

image.png 50.6 KB

Created: 19-Jul-29 21:14
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Race Officer
  • National Umpire
2
Assuming the following diagram to be accurate. Means answer is still correct.
1. When you gybe onto starboard between position 3 & 4 you become the starboard R-o-W under rule 10, and initially required to give the other boat room to keep clear under rule 15.
2. When luff to close hauled between 4 and 6 you a right-of-way boat changing course and need to give blue and red room to keep clear under rule 16.1.
3. At position 5, when you hail from mark room, rule 18 does not apply, see rule 18.1(b)

The following cases are worth reading case 9 and case 11 

image.png 50.6 KB

Created: 19-Jul-29 21:16
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Angel, I'm talking about after the jibe. Yellow (in Mark's diagram) must tack back onto port to round the mark. If she can do that to leeward or clear ahead without breaking 13 she regains rights. 
Created: 19-Jul-29 21:32
John Christman
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
  • Regional Race Officer
1
Not that it matters much, but I am not sure RRS 15 ever applies, I think it may be all RRS 16.1.  Yellow starts out as clear ahead and is that way through most of the turn down, Blue is always astern of the line perpendicular to the stern of Yellow.  For a very brief moment just before Yellow gybes the boats are overlapped (neither meets the definition for clear ahead/astern) and each is on the leeward side of the other and believing they are the ROW boat.  Then Yellow gybes onto starboard and is clearly ROW.  RRS 18 turns off when Yellow gybes and after that it is simply RRS 10 & 16.1 until Yellow crosses HTW.
Created: 19-Jul-29 21:44
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Means Davis
said Created: Yesterday 18:59
Once on stbd. close haul, rule 10 - you are a right of way boat subject to rule 15. You do not have Mark Room as rule 18 is turned off - see 18.1(b)
Why is close hauled relevant?
Created: 19-Jul-30 07:42
Geoff Webber
Nationality: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
0
@Mark Townsend, do you use any special software to create your diagrams?
My rather lack lustre attempt was done in paint!
Created: 19-Jul-30 12:57
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Geoff, I use the open source software here

Boat Scenario
Created: 19-Jul-30 13:36
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States of America
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Race Officer
  • National Umpire
0
I use the open source software Boat Scenario.
http://boats.sf.net

image.png 52 KB
Created: 19-Jul-30 18:09
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