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Start/Finish line Distance marks
Mike Forbes
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
0
If the SI's state "the Start Line will be between an inflatable mark and an orange flag on the CV. A Distance Mark may be laid near the CV. A boat shall not pass between a Distance mark and the CV" ......... how is a boat penalised if she passes between the Distance mark and the CV??
In my view, the boat has crossed the line (orange mark - flag on CV) and Started, but broke the SI.
I have seen SI's that say all of what is below, tho my view is that (3) is correct.
1. should it be scored OCS 2. DNS 3 Ranks as a Starter and Protest re breaking SI rule. 4 the boat has not broken a pt 2 rule so 44.1 does not apply. Can she go back and start correctly?
First rule of being a Race Officer, do not put your self in that situation! Better thought out and written SIs are the solution.
Preparation is the key to success.
Created: 19-Jun-17 21:23
Warren Nethercote
Nationality: Canada
0
The situation requires a protest and unless the SIs also allow discretionary penalties the penalty is DSQ.
Far better to say something like "A boat shall not pass between the distance mark and the CV to start." This allows another go at starting, except of course if someone was forced through this area in the last minute under a black flag, whether or not there is a general recall. With the addition of the 'to start' proviso it is not even apparent that a definition of exoneration is required.
Created: 19-Jun-17 21:28
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
How about an SI that adds an RRS 30.5 to RRS 30?
SI ## - Rev #1 - equivalent to an I Flag
“RRS 30 is changed with the addition of RRS 30.5 as follows: RRS 30.5 A Distance Mark may be laid near the CV. A boat shall not pass between the Distance mark and the CV. If a boat breaks this rule she shall sail across an extension to the pre-start side before starting.”
.. or Rev #2 - make crossing the DV-CV line equivalent to touching a mark
RRS 30.5 A Distance Mark may be laid near the CV. A boat shall not pass between the Distance mark and the CV. If a boat breaks this rule she shall be deemed to have touched a mark (RRS 31). RRS 44.1 shall apply. ”
or Rev #3 - make it equal to breaking a rule of Part 2.
RRS 30.5 A Distance Mark may be laid near the CV. A boat shall not pass between the Distance mark and the CV. If a boat breaks this rule it shall be equivalent to breaking a Part 2 Rule. RRS 44.1 shall apply. ”
PS. Warren, couldn't one argue that your language is changing the definition of “start” (which an SI can’t do)?
Created: 19-Jun-17 21:35
Warren Nethercote
Nationality: Canada
0
Ang,
No, the starting definition is not affected. Adding an inner distance mark effectively changes the starting line to 'on a transit between the pin and (something on the signal boat) with the limits of the line being defined by the pin and an inner distance mark.' These inner distance marks used to be quite common, but seemed to have been more recently supplanted by spacer marks aft of the signal boat, which require much less effort, but are much less effective. I could delete 'to start' in my earlier post, but by doing so would need to add an instruction about exoneration. It seems simpler as I first proposed it.
The main failing of SIs prohibiting passing between the signal boat and the inner distance mark is applying penalties, sometimes draconian, to boats that wander through there inadvertently well before the start with no risk to the signal boat's topsides, or who are forced in there at the starting signal and are offered no means of exoneration. Your rev 2 is one solution that protects the signal boat without draconian measures and avoids competitor/RC angst which is discussed in another ongoing string.
Created: 19-Jun-17 23:30
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
How is missing this mark different then missing the pin? The boat did not cross the line as described, DNS (Exoneration would be to return and start properly)
Created: 19-Jun-17 23:39
Michael Lipari
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
0
Since the area between CV and the distance mark is prescribed as not to be passed, didn't the person break rule 28.1 and/or 28.2 by sailing on the wrong side of the distance mark. The boat would need to be protested, but she could exonerate herself as outlined in 28.2 by going back and sailing the course to comply with the "string rule"
Created: 19-Jun-17 23:44
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
Ah I missed the "shall not pass", it is confusing, perhaps to start properly? There was verbiage for a "keep away buoy" which was similarly messy before the rule was changed I'll have to find an example...
Created: 19-Jun-17 23:49
Warren Nethercote
Nationality: Canada
0
Reflecting some more, the competitor-friendly approach is to drop any prohibition on sailing between the inner distance mark and the signal boat whatsoever and simply define the line appropriately: e.g. "The starting line is on the transit between the course side of the pin and (something on the signal boat) with the limits (or the length?) of the line defined by the pin and the inner distance mark." This wording could be cleaned up a bit. A WS case addresses the proximity of the inner distance mark to the transit as I recall.
Created: 19-Jun-18 00:38
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
International Judge
International Umpire
International Race Officer
0
I think this is the very worst of Sailing Instructions. It does not really limit the line correctly so I believe the boat starts but can be protested. As it is restricted I think this creates an obstruction and boats can therfore barge at the start. The buoy is not a mark as it has not been given a required side. The worst t of all worlds.
Created: 19-Jun-18 04:48
Phil Mostyn
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
0
Right again Mike.
Created: 19-Jun-18 05:24
Mike Forbes
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
0
lots of opinion (thanks), but what would the Jury decide if a boat passes between the Distance mark and the CV? DECISION TIME......... the Prizegiving is in 10 minutes !!!!
Created: 19-Jun-18 10:25
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
This is very close to the verbiage suggested out of the ISAF/WS Case as I recall I cannot find the case. I use similar language for our club races. One addition is the boat shall sail between the marks WHEN APPROACHING THE LINE TO START. Making it clear that doing so prior to the gun is not a penalty. You must assign a side to pass to make the mark a mark. It should be treated like any other starting mark. It is not an obstruction though as it does not require a significant change in course. SIs would have to define it as an obstruction, and I can't see that being beneficial.
In our case the RC is on the clubhouse roof to site the line, it's kind of impractical to use the RC flag as the end as the boats would be on the hard to sail there!
Created: 19-Jun-18 10:48
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
"The starting line runs between the white pin mark on the north side of the river and the flagpole on the roof of the clubhouse with the dark blue race committee flag. The identical white mark on the south side of the river nearest the clubhouse will mark the inner limit of the starting line. When approaching the line to start a boat shall pass between this mark and the pin mark. Please note the inner distance mark is not necessarily on the starting line. This same line serves as the finish line; boats must cross the line between the inner mark and the pin. "
Created: 19-Jun-18 10:57
Mike Forbes
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
0
........ so what happens when a boat is forced the wrong side of the Inner Distance mark? R18 does not apply as it is neither a mark of the course or a starting mark (or is it?) Your line is defined as the Pin to the Flagpole.
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:03
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
As written the Mark is not defined as part of the starting line IMO so you are left with a boat that broke a SI I suppose!
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:04
Mike Forbes
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
0
........... which brings me back to where we started !!! What actually happens in your fleet when a boat passes the wrong side of the DM?
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:06
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
MIke: The (inner) pin is a mark "shall pass between this mark and the pin mark" and is part of the line "will mark the inner limit of the starting line" so it is treated essentially like a second pin or gate. Additionally I make sure it's damn close to the line so there's little wiggle room for judgment...
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:07
Mike Forbes
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
0
so a boat forced the wrong side of the inner pin would simply not have Started, and would not have broken a rule?
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:18
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
In my intentions in writing that instruction, it is treated the same as the pin, a starting mark surrounded by navigable water. If you are forced to the wrong side by a boat complying with the RRS (or miss on your own) you have not started and must come back and restart. It can be defined as an obstruction with different writing of the SIs which may have been the intent of this example.
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:19
Mike Forbes
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
0
.. is the area inside the DM shallow, and therefore a Continuing Obstruction, giving inside overlapped boats the right to pass it on the correct side?
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:20
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
In our case no, however it is inside our docks so it iscourse.jpg38.4 KB undesirable to have it be part of the line.
Excerpt from "The Rules in Practice" by Bryan Willis image.png76.9 KB
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:32
Mike Forbes
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
0
this just grows arms and legs. Is there not a Case? I can't find one.
Created: 19-Jun-18 11:49
Warren Nethercote
Nationality: Canada
0
Case 58 is germane. It refers to a finish, but addresses distance marks. It also implies that a required side needs to be specified for distance marks.
Created: 19-Jun-18 12:07
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
I searched every term I could think of and came up empty. I think this is a case where the OA has to carefully and thoughtfully write the SIs. As long as the line is properly described in the SIs it's ok, but there can always be unintended consequences. This is why the definition of marks was tweaked to allow "keep away buoys" attached to marks (Boats usually). But nothing standardized this situation!
Created: 19-Jun-18 12:12
Mike Forbes
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
National Judge
0
case 58 is certainly interesting, thank you. ...... but an IDM at a Start line is different. Boats are Racing from the Prep signal, so are Racing as they approach the line and after they pass it. It would not matter which side of the line the IDM was on.
Created: 19-Jun-18 12:18
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
It does matter a bit, if it is below the line, a boat may honor it and then "start" outside it when they cross the line. If it is above the line the boat only has to honor it until crossing the line, after the line, they have started and the mark no longer matters (better to be on to slightly below the line)
Created: 19-Jun-18 12:21
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
I don’t think there’s is one right way to write this. IMO it depends on what action the OA wants a boat to take if they violate this space.
Seems there are several options
A penalty equivalent to 30.3 (DSQ w/o hearing)
A penalty equivalent to 30.1 (go around the RC and restart)
A penalty equivalent to a Part 2 or RRS 31 (1 or 2 turns and keep sailing)
Break an SI w/o a 44.1 OTW penalty option, but requires competitor/RC protest
The boat hasn’t crossed the starting line (Diff from 2 above as a dip start could work).
A scoring penalty.
Once the OA decides what they want to happen, then the SI can be written.
Personally out of all I’ve seen, I like my rev #2 or #3 (3 in this comment).. Assuming they are not OCS, they do turns and keep going. Also the language to my eyes is the most straight forward.
Last thought. If the RC attached a line of plastic safety flags from the CV to the DM, the line of flags would be an object purposely attached to the mark, thus the DM, the line of flags and the CV would become effectively one contiguous mark-object.
I think I'll suggest the RO ties a dinghy to the stern of the CV !!!!
Thanks everyone for input. It's a thorny issue indeed.
Created: 19-Jun-18 12:56
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
As far as I can see the only purpose of using a starting line distance mark at the committee vessel is to reduce the risk of boats colliding with [and damaging] the committee vessel.
Can anyone see any othe reason?
Therefore I can't see any reason to allow boats to pass between the distance mark and the committee vessel at any time.
Again, anyone have any different ideas?
Given the RRS now define an object intentionally attached to a mark to be part of the mark, it seems to me that it will always be advantageous to use a buoy streamed off the committee vessel as the distance mark. I can't see any reason why it would need to be any further away from the committee vessel than that would allow.
If that works out, then I think an effective SI would simply be
An Inner Distance Mark (IDM), may be positioned near the race committee vessel. When the IDM is laid, boats shall not pass between the IDM and the race committee vessel.
Does anyone see any problem with that SI?
Created: 24-Jan-12 05:32
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
Frequently these marks are used when the start is run from land so attaching a keep away buoy may not be sufficient... In my case I redefined the line to be between the two marks, it's now up the RC to move themselves to sight the marks or the square the marks to themselves behind the flagpole on our clubhouse.
Created: 24-Jan-12 18:16
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Thanks Craig,
I'm aware there are a wide range of reasons and factors for using distance marks with shore based lines.
I need to focus on committee vessel and laid mark lines.
Created: 24-Jan-12 21:02
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
0
I presume the original poster had some reason to place a keep away mark further from the committee boat could be at the owners request…. The issue is more how it was described. If you physically attach a mark to your boat, it will stream with the current, and possibly be nowhere near the line, or if the current is coming from behind the line wind up in front of the RC vessel… so there a definite limits to where you could place keep away tethered buoys. For that same reason, an anchored buoy, as described, may or may not be in line with the pin and flag but you can get it closer.
Created: 24-Jan-12 21:16
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Craig,
Thanks for the reminders about streamed buoys.
Why would you particularly want the distance mark to be in line with the pin and flag? See first para of my post at Created: Yesterday 05:32. Have you got anything in response to that?
Created: 24-Jan-13 04:51
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
My apologies for doing this, but I would really like some help.
Bump
John Allan
Said Created: Fri 05:32
As far as I can see the only purpose of using a starting line distance mark at the committee vessel is to reduce the risk of boats colliding with [and damaging] the committee vessel.
Can anyone see any othe reason?
Therefore I can't see any reason to allow boats to pass between the distance mark and the committee vessel at any time.
Again, anyone have any different ideas?
Given the RRS now define an object intentionally attached to a mark to be part of the mark, it seems to me that it will always be advantageous to use a buoy streamed off the committee vessel as the distance mark. I can't see any reason why it would need to be any further away from the committee vessel than that would allow.
If that works out, then I think an effective SI would simply be
An Inner Distance Mark (IDM), may be positioned near the race committee vessel. When the IDM is laid, boats shall not pass between the IDM and the race committee vessel.
Does anyone see any problem with that SI?
Created: 24-Jan-17 00:19
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
John A re: “Does anyone see any problem with that SI?”
The only thing that comes to mind John is the same issues that have arisen in our other discussions of exclusion zones and lines .. where a boat might be forced across such a line and an OTW penalty is not available.
Maybe marry with that SI either a 2-turn penalty or recrossing the starting line as stated in RRS 30.1 “… she shall sail across an extension [of the starting line] so that her hull is completely on the pre-start side [and recross the starting line]” …
The above would get them sailing around the RC and out of the way of other starters and put them at the back of the pack.
… or maybe both if you really want to hammer them.
Created: 24-Jan-17 14:45
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Angelo Guarino
Said Created: Today 14:45
John A re: “Does anyone see any problem with that SI?”
The only thing that comes to mind John is the same issues that have arisen in our other discussions of exclusion zones and lines .. where a boat might be forced across such a line and an OTW penalty is not available.
If a boat 'forces' another boat between the RCV and the distance buoy she has probably compelled her to break the rule (and break the RCV), and the boat compelled is exonerated.
Maybe marry with that SI either a 2-turn penalty or recrossing the starting line as stated in RRS 30.1 “… she shall sail across an extension [of the starting line] so that her hull is completely on the pre-start side [and recross the starting line]” …
The above would get them sailing around the RC and out of the way of other starters and put them at the back of the pack.
… or maybe both if you really want to hammer them.
I don't want to 'hammer' anybody, but I don't want them in there, for reasons of safety. I'm not happy with a penalty less than DSQ.
Note your earlier post above with the flag line. I would always intentionally attach the distance buoy to the RCV.
Created: 24-Jan-17 21:27
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Preparation is the key to success.
Far better to say something like "A boat shall not pass between the distance mark and the CV to start." This allows another go at starting, except of course if someone was forced through this area in the last minute under a black flag, whether or not there is a general recall. With the addition of the 'to start' proviso it is not even apparent that a definition of exoneration is required.
SI ## - Rev #1 - equivalent to an I Flag
.. or Rev #2 - make crossing the DV-CV line equivalent to touching a mark
or Rev #3 - make it equal to breaking a rule of Part 2.
PS. Warren, couldn't one argue that your language is changing the definition of “start” (which an SI can’t do)?
No, the starting definition is not affected. Adding an inner distance mark effectively changes the starting line to 'on a transit between the pin and (something on the signal boat) with the limits of the line being defined by the pin and an inner distance mark.' These inner distance marks used to be quite common, but seemed to have been more recently supplanted by spacer marks aft of the signal boat, which require much less effort, but are much less effective. I could delete 'to start' in my earlier post, but by doing so would need to add an instruction about exoneration. It seems simpler as I first proposed it.
The main failing of SIs prohibiting passing between the signal boat and the inner distance mark is applying penalties, sometimes draconian, to boats that wander through there inadvertently well before the start with no risk to the signal boat's topsides, or who are forced in there at the starting signal and are offered no means of exoneration. Your rev 2 is one solution that protects the signal boat without draconian measures and avoids competitor/RC angst which is discussed in another ongoing string.
DECISION TIME......... the Prizegiving is in 10 minutes !!!!
In our case the RC is on the clubhouse roof to site the line, it's kind of impractical to use the RC flag as the end as the boats would be on the hard to sail there!
R18 does not apply as it is neither a mark of the course or a starting mark (or is it?) Your line is defined as the Pin to the Flagpole.
What actually happens in your fleet when a boat passes the wrong side of the DM?
The (inner) pin is a mark "shall pass between this mark and the pin mark" and is part of the line "will mark the inner limit of the starting line" so it is treated essentially like a second pin or gate. Additionally I make sure it's damn close to the line so there's little wiggle room for judgment...
It can be defined as an obstruction with different writing of the SIs which may have been the intent of this example.
Seems there are several options
Once the OA decides what they want to happen, then the SI can be written.
Personally out of all I’ve seen, I like my rev #2 or #3 (3 in this comment).. Assuming they are not OCS, they do turns and keep going. Also the language to my eyes is the most straight forward.
Last thought. If the RC attached a line of plastic safety flags from the CV to the DM, the line of flags would be an object purposely attached to the mark, thus the DM, the line of flags and the CV would become effectively one contiguous mark-object.
Thanks everyone for input. It's a thorny issue indeed.
Can anyone see any othe reason?
Therefore I can't see any reason to allow boats to pass between the distance mark and the committee vessel at any time.
Again, anyone have any different ideas?
Given the RRS now define an object intentionally attached to a mark to be part of the mark, it seems to me that it will always be advantageous to use a buoy streamed off the committee vessel as the distance mark. I can't see any reason why it would need to be any further away from the committee vessel than that would allow.
If that works out, then I think an effective SI would simply be
An Inner Distance Mark (IDM), may be positioned near the race committee vessel. When the IDM is laid, boats shall not pass between the IDM and the race committee vessel.
Does anyone see any problem with that SI?
I'm aware there are a wide range of reasons and factors for using distance marks with shore based lines.
I need to focus on committee vessel and laid mark lines.
Thanks for the reminders about streamed buoys.
Why would you particularly want the distance mark to be in line with the pin and flag? See first para of my post at Created: Yesterday 05:32. Have you got anything in response to that?
Bump
John Allan
Can anyone see any othe reason?
Therefore I can't see any reason to allow boats to pass between the distance mark and the committee vessel at any time.
Again, anyone have any different ideas?
Given the RRS now define an object intentionally attached to a mark to be part of the mark, it seems to me that it will always be advantageous to use a buoy streamed off the committee vessel as the distance mark. I can't see any reason why it would need to be any further away from the committee vessel than that would allow.
If that works out, then I think an effective SI would simply be
An Inner Distance Mark (IDM), may be positioned near the race committee vessel. When the IDM is laid, boats shall not pass between the IDM and the race committee vessel.
Does anyone see any problem with that SI?
The only thing that comes to mind John is the same issues that have arisen in our other discussions of exclusion zones and lines .. where a boat might be forced across such a line and an OTW penalty is not available.
Maybe marry with that SI either a 2-turn penalty or recrossing the starting line as stated in RRS 30.1 “… she shall sail across an extension [of the starting line] so that her hull is completely on the pre-start side [and recross the starting line]” …
The above would get them sailing around the RC and out of the way of other starters and put them at the back of the pack.
… or maybe both if you really want to hammer them.
If a boat 'forces' another boat between the RCV and the distance buoy she has probably compelled her to break the rule (and break the RCV), and the boat compelled is exonerated.
I don't want to 'hammer' anybody, but I don't want them in there, for reasons of safety. I'm not happy with a penalty less than DSQ.
Note your earlier post above with the flag line. I would always intentionally attach the distance buoy to the RCV.