Forum: Race Officers
Question about combing fleets to determine the overall winner for an event. Best Practice? Recommendations?
Andrew Lesslie
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
- Judge In Training
- Club Race Officer
0
Hi All,
Situation is a local club regatta, that has three fleets and only one trophy to award. Using standard low point scoring on PHRF ToT.
How might the RC best combine the results of three separate fleets to determine an overall winner?
I've looked in the Race Management manual and there's no recommendation there.
Edit: Our scoring platform is jibeset. It has the ability to score multiple fleets, e.g. PHRF1, PHRF2, OD1, OD2, and then combine into an overall fleet. But that might not be the best way to do overall scores.
Advice and arguments for / against different methods are much appreciated.
So far, the candidates are:
1- Get two more trophies (for sure the best long-term option)
2- Award the win to the boat that scores the lowest points, using tiebreakers as necessary, or
3- Combine all boats into a single fleet and re-score.
Very many thanks in advance
Andrew
Situation is a local club regatta, that has three fleets and only one trophy to award. Using standard low point scoring on PHRF ToT.
How might the RC best combine the results of three separate fleets to determine an overall winner?
I've looked in the Race Management manual and there's no recommendation there.
Edit: Our scoring platform is jibeset. It has the ability to score multiple fleets, e.g. PHRF1, PHRF2, OD1, OD2, and then combine into an overall fleet. But that might not be the best way to do overall scores.
Advice and arguments for / against different methods are much appreciated.
So far, the candidates are:
1- Get two more trophies (for sure the best long-term option)
2- Award the win to the boat that scores the lowest points, using tiebreakers as necessary, or
3- Combine all boats into a single fleet and re-score.
Very many thanks in advance
Andrew
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https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Cox-Sprague_Scoring_Sys.pdf
Hope this helps,
Doug
I am assuming the fleets were not equal in numbers, but equal in the number of races.
Option 2 become a bit of a problem because of fleet size: e.g. 5 boat fleet, a 20 boat fleet and a 15 boat fleet.
Option 3 at this point might be your best choice and if not already provided, a one or two race drop for a long series.
The result is a number <1. To make this fair, you should put a minimum number of races needed to qualify
https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/what-scoring-system.241103/#post-8484924
7. SCORING
For our Wednesday Night PHRF series (~30 race days/year), here is the wording:
7. SCORING
7.1 The Standard FWYC High Point System will apply. This changes rules A4.1, A4.2, and A9.
7.2 Five (5) races are required to be completed to constitute a series.
7.3 No races will be excluded. This changes Rule A2.
7.4 Boats must compete in 60% of all sailed races to be eligible for series awards.
NOTE: We score the boats in three fleets A, B, and C Fleets. Then produce a Bragging Rights score across all fleets for Spin/Non-Spin.
https://www.gmora.org/scoring
There are a couple features that I think are a nice idea.
QR4: This is the minimum races .. set as you think is appropriate
QR5: If you know this, it's nice to have .. but you don't necessarily need this one.
SC1 and SC2: Adding one point for starting and finishing has the effect of rewarding those who compete in more events.
SC5: This gives a boost for single "long distance" races and limits the number of bonus points that are applicable (in this case 10 for the first race and 2nd race and 5 for the 3rd).
SC6: Regattas are scored as one event
SC8: throw-outs for every 6 races scored again rewards those who are out there all the time.
SC9 and SC10 are the heart of the calculation.
SC10's "plus 30" is a participation factor. The more people race, the smaller the effect of the "30" is.
CBYRA High Point Procedures for J105
Qualifying Rules:
1. Points are recorded based on CBYRA registration number only. The sail number and boat name are not taken into account except in determining the class that the competitor is scored in.2. To be eligible for high point, the contestant must be a member of CBYRA and a participating club.
Some smart people have offered great ideas here. I too am a fan of a high point system for scoring, (Cox-Sprague or Chips3 are both available in sailwave), which work for a series over a long period of time. As you mentioned scoring a regatta with three classes, I assumed it was something of a shorter term event. I guess that the issue is more one of how to compare different fleets fairly, not so much as what's the fairest way to score the fleets individually, so it likely doesn't matter which scoring system you use, as long as they are fair for the individual fleets. If all are the same (making the "fleets" more "classes" of similar type boats), the job should become much easier.
If you are scoring all fleets PHRF ToT, perhaps a simple view of the lowest total corrected time for the event would serve the purpose? (see RRS A2.2)
Some regattas that hold multiple classes or fleets, event ones scored separately using different systems (e.g. one design, PHRF and IRC or others) offer a "boat of the day" or "boat of the week" trophy (think the old Key West Race Week). This is often determined by who wins the most competitive fleet. The smallest margin among the top x number of boats is often the criteria.
It also might be worthwhile to consult the people or organization that contributed the trophy to get a feel for how they see it being awarded?
👍👍
This discussion has helped me a great deal.
Carl, you've understood it perfectly. Thank you.
Combining fleets and using lowest combined corrected times is one of the methods we have used in the past. (The other is to combine points).
Combining times can have some unexpected consequence. In one regatta none of the individual fleet winners was the overall winner.
Jim, The races are in the same area, same conditions. Rolling 5-minute starts so all fleets are racing within 10 minutes of each other. Course is the same for all.
Scoring is recorded and calculated using that SF Bay area staple, Jibeset. Yes, Jibeset does have a high point score formula.
I suspect your case is not so simple!
However... I did run a race this year where I tried to combine two different races to give an overall score - I devised a weighting system which I thought would favour those sailing the longer more difficult course only for it all to blow up in my face as there were significantly different numbers of entrant in each race which ended up mostly benefiting those doing the shorter race! This was followed by an acrimonious protest as I'd failed to exclude some other obscure clause in our Notice of Race for the season ... suffice to say (a) don't try to make up your own system if there's a tried and tested one out there - preferably get more trophies and (b) make sure your NoR and SIs are watertight.
(East Anglian Offshore Racing Association, EAORA)
Gotta tell ya that I like that the overall winner wasn't a division winner! Consistency pays! and you get to give more people stuff!!!
see example here in the right most column: https://yachtscoring.com/event_results_detail.cfm?Race_Number=3&eID=15647
For PHRF fleets with 5 or more boats, find the average of all races for most competitive:
The 5th place corrected time – 1st place corrected time
Example:
Race 1, Fleet A
1st place corrected time 48:54
5th place corrected time 53:34
53:34 - 48:54 = 4:40
Race 1, Fleet B
1st place corrected time 43.22
5th place corrected time 55.20
55.20 – 43.22 = 11:58
Fleet A is most competitive for Race 1, 4:40 vs 11:58
Multi-race calculation (3 race example):
Fleet A: Race 1 – 4:40, Race 2 - 5:34, Race 3 - 5:15 = 4:40 + 5:34 + 5:15 = 14:53 / 3 = 4:58
Fleet B: Race 1 – 11:58, Race 2 - 6:01, Race 3 – 3:21 = 11:58 + 6:01 + 3:21 = 21:20 / 3 = 7:07
Fleet A is most competitive for races 1 through 3.
1. I think the time differences between first and last should be divided by the average. Otherwise, a fleet that is sent on a longer course, or contains slower boats, will appear less competitive than it might be.
2. If I was leading a race, in a regatta of this format, I would be motivated to win by as small an amount as possible, and maybe even slow down some of the other leaders in an attempt to make my fleet score as a more competitive fleet. I think such shenanigans would be allowed by "recognized principles of sportsmanship" to try to win the overall event (case 78).
Regards
Doug
I would recommend not using RRS A8.2 because the boats are not all competing in the same race, so cannot sail tactically to defend against a potential tie. If you get a tie after implementing A8.1, just say the trophy has to be shared.
Also, if for whatever reason one fleet sails more or less races than the others, you will have to equalise the number of races by allowing more discards as appropriate.
Best regards, Ian
However if one does seek to compare races using a percentage system as noted above, it's wise to note that race results tend to a very skewed distribution. This means a % of the average of all competitors is probably not good. Better to use the mode rather than the mean, or else copy the RYA PYS calculation that only includes boats that finish within x% (think it's 20%) of the race winners corrected time in the average.
As for ties, I'm not sure I can imagine a means of tactically considering ties in a handicap race. IMHO its best not to think too deeply about ties in handicap races. Once you start considering rounding errors and the chances of 1 second errors in recording times it all starts going west rather quickly.
I have not considered a fleet leader slowing to compress the fleet, a Team Racing tactic, so that the overall competitiveness of the fleet improves.
In the local Boomerang Race (by Eastport YC), they offer the “Boomerang Trophy” which is “… awarded to the boat that places 1st in the class with the closest elapsed corrected times between 1st and 5th places.”
PS: As a note, our local J105 “Velvet Hammer” won that honor in the 2023 Boomerang, After 7-1/2 hrs, much of it nighttime racing (finished 3am), 1st, 2nd were separated by only 1 sec, with 3rd 90 secs behind and 1st to 5th only 11 min’s!
Doug
Remember this is mainly a night race. After the first few hours most of the fleet looses sight of each other and boats are just reduced to red, green and white flickers in the dark … nearly impossible to tell if the boat gaining on you or ahead of you is in your fleet or another fleet.
I was the 3rd 105 in that race, after over 7hrs finishing 90 secs behind 1st and 2nd. As I approached the line, I thought the 2 boats ahead were ORC boats until I heard my friend Dave Scheidt’s distinctive baratone. :-)