Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
Crossing a finish/start line half way through a race during the start of another class
Rene Nusse
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
- Club Race Officer
- Club Judge
- Umpire In Training
0
Someone asked me if a boat should be disqualified when it crosses the start/finish line halfway through its race whilst another class is about the start their race on the same line. Flags are displayed for the next class to start in 1 minute. Any thoughts?
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For instance, in the SI that I write (for dinghies), I usually include an instruction, marked [DP], that states that during the starting procedure of a fleet, the boats that are not part of that fleet shall keep at 100m (sometimes 50m) distance from the starting line, in each direction. In such a case, a boat which crosses the start line halfway through its race whilst another class is about to start its race on the same line may be assigned a Discretional Penalty.
This provision is quite common for ILCA/Laser, that usually race on a trapezoid course. It can be implemented easily also in windward/leeward races, provided that the pin end of the staring line is not the leeward mark.
On the contrary, in a windward/leeward course, where the pin is also the leeward mark, this SI shall be included very carefully!
Further example.
In an Optimist race, where the finish line is very close to mark 2 of the Optimist course (if you don't know how such a course is designed, please let me know), most times there is an SI that defines the finish line as an obstruction for the boats that are not finishing. Consequently, the boats that cross the finish line while on their run leg, may be disqualified.
Similarly, if you want to forbid the crossing of the starting line strictly, a solution could be for the SI to include an instruction that defines the starting line as an obstruction for the boats that are not starting.
Mind that in a windward/leeward course, where the pin is also the leeward mark, the latter provision would be unfeasible.
Typically, with multiple classes with the Start line in the middle of the course, I write a rule in the SI's that says that after starting, the Start line is restricted and constitutes an obstruction to competitors.
That part about the line being an obstruction is a new addition and is considered the better way to do it. It makes clear the responsibilities of other boats near the Start line in terms of providing room etc.
I don't put a distance in, as one other poster has said they do. I would find that hard to enforce (how sure could I be that a boat was actually 90m from the line and therefore should be DSQ'ed).
Thus I add the notation [DP] when I fix the stand-off distance. Such an SI gives the competitors two messages:
But I find your approach very interesting! I will consider it, next time.
Now I don't want to hijack this thread. Bottom line is: there is nothing in the RRS that prescribes to disqualify a boat that crosses the start/finish line as described in Rene's question.
Cheers :-)
I like your wording. I think it's perfect for a casual club race where everyone is there to have fun. I have no doubt it works in terms of keeping such racers away from the S/F line. My concern would be in a more cut-throat fleet. What would I do if one competitor protested another claiming s/he had sailed within 75M of the line? What would I do if I thought a competitor was repeatedly taking advantage of others by sailing a shorter course around the line--pushing the limits of what 100m looks like?
We added the "obstruction" part following some arguments by Dave Perry that without it, it would not be clear what the obligations other competitors were with respect to rule 19. The argument is that the line doesn't fit the definition of Obstruction because you have the option of passing either side. A leeward boat at the pin end could say to a windward boat "you can pass at the boat end. I have no obligation to let you pass inside me" (I realize that your distance rule takes care of that problem elegantly--I do like it from that point of view)"
Maybe I just should work with a better class of sailors.
as you might imagine, in almost every one of the 7 races, there was boats crossing either the start or finish lines when other fleets were starting. In two races, as I crossed the finish line while sailing to weather in the middle of the race, R/C asked if I was finishing. Seems to me that the PRO made it very confusing/difficult for the RC by not making the line an obstruction....
I work a lot of regattas that are set up as windward/leeward courses with a mid-course start/finish line. This is usually done due to a limited number of mark set/safety boats. (Also, I much prefer to have the recording of finishes on my boat where we can have multiple recorders and I can dictate the finishes into a recording.) When I first started doing multi-class regattas as a PRO, I would write in a prohibition against crossing the start/finish line except when starting or finishing. What I found was that there was ALWAYS someone who didn't get the word and would sail through the start/finish line. I even had a competitor lose a regatta because of that error. Oftentimes the violation occurred when other classes were not starting or finishing, so enforcing the violation served no good purpose. Now I avoid using the prohibition, although I do ask competitors to keep clear of the start/finish area unless starting or finishing at the competitors meeting. It seems to work.
In which case all sorts of crazy happens if you can't sail through while a fleet are starting, but can you sail through 10s after they started? Depending on the length of the line that's enough to give someone an advantage!
OR did he mean sail through the start-finish gate on the downwind...? That is commonly prohibited in the SIs.
This can be solved by use of the Orange Flag on the starting vessel, with a SI providing that while the Orange (or Blue) Flag is displayed boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line.
Unless the race committee is compelled to set the leeward mark or gate exceptionally close to the starting/finishing line, I don't see the need to write a SI closing the starting/finishing line just to cover the unusual case that a boat may overrun the leeward mark/gate.
But a boat headed towards the line when no flag is displayed, but a flag is displayed as they get closer then they then need to detour round. The boat further back takes a shorter detour and may gain a place. Or vice versa may happen if the flag is up the leading boat has to sail round the line and a trailing boat can sail through if the flag drops.
You are assuming the line is 'below' the leeward mark. Here is a roughly to scale 40 minute triangle sausage course with start finish midway up the beat for a 420 race with 40 boats
Should the line be closed for downwind from 1 to 3? Or indeed, if it's being used for multiple starts from 3 to 1.
The obvious answer is to not set the course. But if the course is set, the answer is it's only DSQ if the SSI said it can be.
Consider John A's option of saying "boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line". :-) I'm not picking on John, what he has suggested is all too common. There are just all sorts of unintended consequences with this kind of SI.
Consider:
Once you think about all that and then try and come up with wording that won't get you in trouble, you have probably created new problems.
The attached article talks about the line being an obstruction or restricted and what the rule 19 & 20 consequences are.
Was that diagram from a proprietary app? Which one. It looks neat,.
I take your point.
I dream of seeing forty 420s on a starting line.
TBH, I haven't seen a Gold Cup triangle course for 30 years, certainly not since becoming a race officer.
On your example, its going to be 20 minutes before the first fleet to start does their triangle and gets back to the starting area, so the RO can get another 2 or three starts away before there is a problem.
Ok, that turns to custard if he has a couple of postponements or general recalls.
So, you're saying just close the dawn line and leave it closed.
I'm coming round.
It's using the data the RYA (UK) has in spreadsheets - but I assume is the same data others may have as it's not a UK author.
Times for -
Laser
2.4
29er
420
470
49er
Finn
Kite
Mirror
Optimist
Feva
Topper
Nacra
And a few that I don't recognise
Courses:
W/L, Triangle, Trap, and Optimist (modified Trap)
With most variants of where the start/finish sits.
Can adjust angles etc.
Can adjust windspeed
Can adjust number of boats on line
You enter a target race time. You tell it number of beats and it gives you distances for legs. Slightly different from the RYA tablets which are designed to be static.
It does not do mark positions by GPS (I've played with another that does but I preferred this). I've never found for dinghy racing giving co-ordinates for a mark to be helpful. Much simpler for everyone to Mark a fixed point (the app lets you use middle of start line and for some courses middle of w/l gate.
I only discovered it about a month ago and haven't had a chance to use it in anger yet. They have a sister app that does flag sequence etc and can interface to a Bluetooth horn relay that they can supply. It looks nice. But I have a different app (Dinghy Sailing Race Control) that can interact via WiFi and will take times for handicap races etc.
Android and iPhone versions available.
Free.
No adds.
I was aware of the problems with the language. I was being quick and dirty.
There have been a couple of threads about this
"Closed" line on a course
Closed LIne and Rules 18 and 19
I think the wording proposed by John Siegel in the first of those threads is quite elegant
You could add
After the first warning signal boats that are not racing shall not cross the starting/finishing line.
Thanks for the useful thoughts below.
Under my imperfect wording "boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line".
@ -4 minutes she is neither starting nor finishing: she shall not sail through the line.
When does the restriction start?: See my suggested additional wording above: starts at the first warning signal.
When does the restriction end?: When the line shuts down.
A boat that is late for her start is 'starting' when she is at the starting line. She's ok.
No. She finishes when she crosses the finishing line for the first time. She 'unfinishes' when she takes her penalty. If she sails from the post-course side to the course side of the finishing line through the line, she will break the rule, but not otherwise.
See my suggested additional wording above: starts at the first warning signal.
See the John Siegel wording. IMHO when a SI designates an area or line that boats shall not sail through, SI should also expressly say that ti is an obstruction. We had an Australian Appeal that said the contrary, that an area that boats were forbidden from sailing in was impliedly an obstruction. I would prefer express wording.
See above.
Agree
So there are two different cases:
Case 1 sucks, shouldn't have been put in the SI, but should probably be DP NP, and, being under the direct observation of the race committee could be 'by the race committee without a hearing', but I'm uncomfortable with a race committee giving DP. Maybe SP?
Case 2, to some extent is dealt with by RRS 23.2 but there is a problem for boats before their start: arguably a boat in her starting sequence but before starting is not sailing on any leg at all and the rule does not apply. If the rule breaking boat does interfere with a starting boat, she should be disqualified, and the boat interfered with should be able to protes her, otherwise maybe she doesn't deserve disualification, except to the extent that she has wilfully broken the rule. So I guess DP, but not NP.
See above.
A boat not racing certainly can be penalised for breaking RRS 23.1, and under the same circumstances I don't see why she should not be penalised for breaking a SI intended to have a similar effect. DP should cover it.
Not RRS 43.1(b) because that only gives exoneration for cetain specific RRS breaches.
If she is not given room, is she not compelled to cross the boundary? RRS 43.1(a)?
Nothing in RRS 43.1 says a boat has to be penalised. exoneration is not the same as redress.
I generally agree that the problems closed lines are intended to address can probably be managed around in different ways, once the race committee accepts that they shouldn't be messing commpetitors around just to make their job easy. Like, don't use a Gold Cup layout with short legs so that boats already racing will catch up with subsequent starts, and don't put your finishing line too close to the gate.
Sometimes this might be unavoidable and then a closed line might be useful, I think the wording suggested above might work, but would welcome some more discussion.
You can't embed files other than images here.
Can you put a Dropbox or Google Drive link in?